Appleton Beer Factory Stops By for a Pint at Lagerfest 2025

Gary Arndt: 00:00:05

Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Respecting the Beer.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:08

My name is Gary.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:08

Arent.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:09

With me as usual, is the man whose expertise is a Venn diagram of wood, planets, and beer.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:15

Mr. Bobby Fleshman

Bobby Fleshman: 00:00:17

Cheers Gary.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:18

And we got the next door neighbors on the show, except we got all of 'em this time.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:24

We got returning Champion Ben Fogel, but we also got his dad, Jeff, and we got one of the partners in the Appleton Beer factory.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:31

Carl Pierce, we've talked to you.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:36

So, quite frankly, we're, we're just not that interested in, in, in, in what you're talking about.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:40

That's fine.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:40

We've talked about your dad quite a bit actually.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:42

Right.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:42

On different things.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:44

So, uh, Jeff, you could introduce yourself and kind of tell us how you got involved, both with Abbi and Beer Factory, MACLE Men's, and a lot of the other projects you do.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:55

And I'm sure Bobby, you got a lot to say and 'cause you know, far more about.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:00:59

Well,

Gary Arndt: 00:01:00

what, what he's done and what he's capable of and his skills and everything.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:01:03

Yeah, it predates us.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:01:04

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:01:04

So he should tell his story where, where it begins.

Jeff Fogle: 00:01:08

Uh, it's kind of a big one.

Jeff Fogle: 00:01:09

Uh, try and keep it short.

Jeff Fogle: 00:01:12

Jeff Fogle here.

Jeff Fogle: 00:01:14

Uh, I guess it started, uh, Mike.

Jeff Fogle: 00:01:19

The journey into craft brewing started in 1982.

Jeff Fogle: 00:01:25

Um, what I like to say before craft was cool.

Jeff Fogle: 00:01:30

Um, I was welding, doing sanitary welding for a local contractor on Anheuser-Busch project, going to Newark, New Jersey.

Jeff Fogle: 00:01:39

And, uh, I was very bored for long periods of the day and my imagination started kinda running wild.

Jeff Fogle: 00:01:48

And I'm like, well, the big boys are expanding.

Jeff Fogle: 00:01:51

You know, why can't a little guy make beer?

Jeff Fogle: 00:01:54

So the contractor is working for a significant, uh, Fox Fidelity contractor.

Jeff Fogle: 00:01:59

Um, had a lot of scrap dumpsters out back and, um, so I helped myself to some parts and pieces and welded up a small 15 gallon system.

Jeff Fogle: 00:02:15

Um.

Jeff Fogle: 00:02:16

And went to my father, who was actually a second generation distiller, um, and a watchmaker by trade.

Jeff Fogle: 00:02:24

And I approached him with a idea and he was on board, totally on board.

Jeff Fogle: 00:02:31

Um, pretty much the rest of my relation.

Jeff Fogle: 00:02:34

And friends, they were like, why would you wanna do this?

Jeff Fogle: 00:02:37

Why would you wanna make your own beer?

Jeff Fogle: 00:02:39

Go to the store, buy some beer.

Jeff Fogle: 00:02:42

I'm like, eh, no.

Jeff Fogle: 00:02:43

I gotta make beer.

Jeff Fogle: 00:02:45

So that's kind of how it started.

Jeff Fogle: 00:02:47

And, um, we started brewing beer.

Jeff Fogle: 00:02:51

My father and I, he was, he was the brewer.

Jeff Fogle: 00:02:53

I was kind of the process engineer and obviously equipment manufacturer.

Jeff Fogle: 00:02:59

And, um, and we started brewing beer and, uh, had, uh, had some learning curves.

Jeff Fogle: 00:03:05

Um, wasn't great, but we, we, go ahead.

Ben Fogle: 00:03:11

Well, I was just gonna say, and Bobby helped me out here, but.

Ben Fogle: 00:03:15

You have to keep in mind the timeframe of when you were trying to brew home brew and what resources you had at, okay, so

Jeff Fogle: 00:03:23

that breaks

Ben Fogle: 00:03:23

the internet.

Jeff Fogle: 00:03:24

Definitely.

Jeff Fogle: 00:03:25

The internet, right?

Jeff Fogle: 00:03:26

My father went to the, there was no

Ben Fogle: 00:03:28

home brewing for dummies yet,

Jeff Fogle: 00:03:30

right?

Jeff Fogle: 00:03:31

My father went to the local Nina library and got the one book.

Jeff Fogle: 00:03:37

There was a single book about brewing in the entire library.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:03:41

Was it Charlie Ian's book?

Bobby Fleshman: 00:03:43

There.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:03:43

He wrote a home brewing.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:03:44

The joy of home brewing.

Jeff Fogle: 00:03:46

There was not, it was not home brewing.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:03:47

Okay.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:03:48

This

Jeff Fogle: 00:03:48

was

Bobby Fleshman: 00:03:48

commercial brewing.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:03:49

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:03:49

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:03:50

It was like how a national brewery functions.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:03:53

Was it a German textbook or,

Jeff Fogle: 00:03:55

well, no, it wasn't, wasn't German, but it was thick.

Ben Fogle: 00:03:58

That'd be interesting to know.

Jeff Fogle: 00:03:59

And there was really cool illustrations in it, which I didn't know really what any of the stuff was.

Jeff Fogle: 00:04:04

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:04:05

You know, today it'd be different.

Jeff Fogle: 00:04:06

Of course.

Jeff Fogle: 00:04:08

Um, so we, yeah, we, you know, somehow.

Jeff Fogle: 00:04:12

Okay.

Jeff Fogle: 00:04:13

Put this little system together and started brewing.

Jeff Fogle: 00:04:16

And that, that was in 1982.

Ben Fogle: 00:04:18

That's where I was.

Ben Fogle: 00:04:18

One of that is,

Jeff Fogle: 00:04:18

yep.

Ben Fogle: 00:04:19

You, where did you even get malt from?

Ben Fogle: 00:04:24

Any other ingredients

Jeff Fogle: 00:04:25

that, that's a good, good question.

Jeff Fogle: 00:04:27

Um, we drove to Madison, Wisconsin.

Jeff Fogle: 00:04:31

Uh, we heard that there was somehow heard that there was a wine making shop in Madison that had a small selection of.

Jeff Fogle: 00:04:40

Brewing ingredients and we drove down there and in the corner of this large wine making store was this little shelf.

Jeff Fogle: 00:04:49

And, uh, we went there and bought everything on the shelf 'cause it was 200 mile trip and we didn't even know what we were buying.

Jeff Fogle: 00:04:58

And we got it home and, you know, it was like Christmas.

Jeff Fogle: 00:05:00

Um, so that's, that's, that was it for ingredients for a very long time.

Jeff Fogle: 00:05:06

Yep.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:05:07

In the, in the, in the context of craft beer, this is when there was Sierra Nevada and there was almost nobody else.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:05:15

Right?

Bobby Fleshman: 00:05:15

In 82.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:05:17

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:05:17

You had Anchor Brewing Company, which wasn't national.

Jeff Fogle: 00:05:21

I think it was.

Jeff Fogle: 00:05:23

Uh, my brother-in-law, Ben's uncle called me up, uh, new Year's Day, 1984, the year Ben was born and said that, Hey, you know, to your point, Bobby, you know, uh, hey, there's.

Jeff Fogle: 00:05:36

One of these outfits starting up in Madison.

Jeff Fogle: 00:05:41

Uh, it was

Ben Fogle: 00:05:42

capital.

Jeff Fogle: 00:05:42

And it was capital.

Jeff Fogle: 00:05:43

And he said, you know, quit, quit with your dreaming and just go buy some stock.

Jeff Fogle: 00:05:48

And I'm like, no, I got, I gotta do my own thing.

Jeff Fogle: 00:05:51

Someday we will do our own thing.

Jeff Fogle: 00:05:53

So, you know,

Gary Arndt: 00:05:56

and for, for people listening and, and for my own, uh, information you talked about, uh, was it, uh, sanitary welding was.

Gary Arndt: 00:06:06

The word you used, like food level?

Gary Arndt: 00:06:08

Yep.

Gary Arndt: 00:06:08

Food grade.

Gary Arndt: 00:06:08

Yeah.

Gary Arndt: 00:06:09

What's, what's the difference between that and say normal welding?

Gary Arndt: 00:06:11

Like what, what, what goes into that that requires a special skill set?

Jeff Fogle: 00:06:17

Uh, definitely knowhow knowledge.

Jeff Fogle: 00:06:19

Um, definitely practice.

Jeff Fogle: 00:06:21

A lot of practice.

Jeff Fogle: 00:06:23

Um, yeah, it's thin wall, stainless, uh, stainless in the molten state reacts in a very horrible way to the atmosphere, so.

Jeff Fogle: 00:06:31

There's internal purging you have to do with inner gas and that kind of stuff.

Jeff Fogle: 00:06:36

So you kind of gotta know the, the tricks and, um, yeah,

Ben Fogle: 00:06:41

yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:06:41

Whereas if it was, it was not sanitary, a lot of people would just weld from the outside.

Ben Fogle: 00:06:47

You don't care about what's happening on the inside of that seam.

Ben Fogle: 00:06:50

Uh, that sanitary joint has to be maintained in a different way during the.

Ben Fogle: 00:06:57

The welding process,

Bobby Fleshman: 00:06:58

it has to be as smooth as like the size of, uh, bacteria, so you can't harbor inside.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:03

So that's the kind of, we look at it under a microscope, but it has to be cleanable to that degree.

Jeff Fogle: 00:07:08

And if you do it correctly, the, and if you look at the inside weld bead, it's called a bead.

Jeff Fogle: 00:07:14

Um, it's, you know, it's, it's just awesome.

Jeff Fogle: 00:07:18

Beautiful.

Jeff Fogle: 00:07:19

It's, the internals are normally better than the externals wellbeing.

Jeff Fogle: 00:07:24

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:24

And I, and I came from a farm, you know, I came from arc welding.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:27

You've seen these people use, uh, sticks in their, in their electrode, and they're, they're just connecting, you know, they implement steel together and they're not concerned about food contact.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:37

Right.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:37

So I understood structural welding, but then I met Jeff and I, and I got to know a little bit, maybe enough to be dangerous, but, but it's a necessary skill that a brewer has to have.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:46

Just add that to the list.

Ben Fogle: 00:07:49

Or know somebody.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:50

Or know somebody.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:51

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:51

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:52

But I mean, you, it's nice to know kind of what's going on, to have some wherewithal about it, uh, because

Ben Fogle: 00:07:57

you can also be sold something that you

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:59

Yes.

Ben Fogle: 00:08:00

Is not good.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:08:01

Absolutely.

Ben Fogle: 00:08:02

And if you don't know what you're looking at, then Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:08:05

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:08:05

And that's, I mean, I don't know where you wanna take this podcast, Gary, but could the fabrication side of Jeff's history, that's everything in, in my view.

Jeff Fogle: 00:08:14

Well, thank

Gary Arndt: 00:08:14

you.

Ben Fogle: 00:08:14

Yeah,

Gary Arndt: 00:08:15

I, I think we could do a whole

Ben Fogle: 00:08:16

separate

Gary Arndt: 00:08:16

show on that sometime.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:08:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gary Arndt: 00:08:17

Right.

Gary Arndt: 00:08:18

Um, actually, but I want to jump ahead.

Jeff Fogle: 00:08:20

Okay.

Gary Arndt: 00:08:21

We, we, we've talked to Ben before, but Apple and Beer Factory, and you guys have a real close relationship with Macle Men's, uh, Carl, you wanna get your mouth really close to the mic.

Gary Arndt: 00:08:30

Um,

Bobby Fleshman: 00:08:31

explain kind of your, your role and how this came together,

Gary Arndt: 00:08:34

uh, your role with A BF.

Jeff Fogle: 00:08:37

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:08:37

Um, so I met Ben, uh, freshman year at Michigan Tech.

Jeff Fogle: 00:08:43

So, uh, summer, late summer 2003 and, uh, we're in the same freshman dorm hall became good buddies, uh,

Ben Fogle: 00:08:54

pretty quickly.

Jeff Fogle: 00:08:55

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:08:55

And there was never any underage consumption ever, uh, that's, that's just not something that, that we would ever do.

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:04

But hypothetically, lab was

Ben Fogle: 00:09:06

actually feeding us.

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:07

Oh,

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:08

so, okay, so wait a

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:09

second.

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:09

I'm gonna cut in here.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:09:10

So when David will edit this down, it's fine.

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:13

Uh,

Bobby Fleshman: 00:09:14

no, we're past the statute of limitations.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:09:15

It doesn't matter.

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:16

Freshman year when Ben would come home to visit back to Nina, um, Carl, a lot of times Carl would come with him.

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:24

And Carl soon realized, oh, you guys got a pretty nice brewing system in your basement.

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:31

And so, of course, you know what?

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:33

They could brew, they could, they could, uh, sample, uh, sample quality checks was mandatory.

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:39

So, go ahead, Carl.

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:40

That's, I just had to throw that in

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:41

there.

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:41

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:41

So I, like, I didn't grow up around, uh, a brewing system and, you know, with a distiller in the family like, like Ben did.

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:51

Um, I just grew up, you know, having a.

Jeff Fogle: 00:09:54

Yeah, like a rancid sip of a room temperature Mickey's from my dad while he is like burning the hell outta steaks.

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:02

And, um, mm, memories that was, that was my first exposure to beer.

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:07

And it wasn't, wasn't great.

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:09

But then, uh, yeah, I don't know, like a little bit later.

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:13

So yeah, so there was some microbrews that came to like, I'm, I'm from Upper Michigan, um, so you know, small market in the woods.

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:24

Uh, it was like a gas station, bait shop, butcher shop, post office.

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:29

Uh, you'd probably have minor for those

Gary Arndt: 00:10:31

who's never been upper Michigan.

Gary Arndt: 00:10:32

That's all of upper Michigan.

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:33

Well, you're right.

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:34

So pretty much, and

Gary Arndt: 00:10:35

fudge,

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:38

that's only tourist towns.

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:39

They, they want, they wanted nothing to do with where I was from.

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:42

Uh, but, uh, you know, they like, so then like Killians came in and like, stuff like that that like, okay, this isn't, this isn't terrible.

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:52

Like I can.

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:53

I like this.

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:54

This is, this is good and

Ben Fogle: 00:10:55

has

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:56

flavor.

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:56

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:10:56

So by the time I, you know, got to, got to tech and there was a microbrewery that had started up there.

Jeff Fogle: 00:11:04

And Kean

Jeff Fogle: 00:11:06

Aing

Jeff Fogle: 00:11:06

company.

Jeff Fogle: 00:11:06

Kean a brewing company.

Jeff Fogle: 00:11:08

Yep.

Jeff Fogle: 00:11:08

Yep.

Jeff Fogle: 00:11:09

Um, and yeah, uh, like had come back on a, a couple of holiday breaks to, um, hang out in, in Nina, which to me was.

Jeff Fogle: 00:11:20

The big city.

Jeff Fogle: 00:11:21

I remember driving down downtown Appleton then, and just like eyes wide, like, oh my gosh, these buildings are so tall.

Jeff Fogle: 00:11:27

There's so many people.

Jeff Fogle: 00:11:28

It's great.

Jeff Fogle: 00:11:28

Um, and, uh, yeah, like I, I just kind of fell into it and really enjoyed it.

Jeff Fogle: 00:11:37

Like it kind of combined the mechanical engineering stuff that both Ben and I were, we're learning about with the.

Jeff Fogle: 00:11:42

Uh, fabrication and kind of building your own system and times and temperatures and measures and volumes and all that sort of stuff.

Jeff Fogle: 00:11:49

And also just cooking, which I really enjoyed.

Jeff Fogle: 00:11:53

So I, I kind of started to take advantage of all the stuff that was now out there.

Jeff Fogle: 00:12:00

Bought a lot of books, um, scoured the web.

Jeff Fogle: 00:12:04

Um, got information on how to, how to make beers different, recipes, what made certain styles, those styles.

Jeff Fogle: 00:12:12

Um, took advantage of the expansion in, in, in home brew markets, both, uh, here in Appleton and online.

Jeff Fogle: 00:12:19

And, uh, yeah, we started making, uh, probably as soon as we graduated, we were, we were making beer within like, so we graduated like May, early May of 2008.

Jeff Fogle: 00:12:34

If we didn't have the first batch fermenting by the end of the month, I'd be surprised.

Jeff Fogle: 00:12:39

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:12:40

And it was about that time that, um, again, you know, Ben and Carl, they're focusing on the recipes and the, the actual brewing.

Jeff Fogle: 00:12:50

I am, turned my focus to more equipment.

Jeff Fogle: 00:12:54

So at that point, we had a full barrel, uh, brewery in, in our.

Jeff Fogle: 00:13:01

Which is pretty, pretty epic.

Ben Fogle: 00:13:03

And we had already started writing the business plan, uh, like a year prior to that so that this was all starting to kind of just

Jeff Fogle: 00:13:11

was Ben's

Ben Fogle: 00:13:11

second come together.

Ben Fogle: 00:13:13

Senior project.

Ben Fogle: 00:13:13

Yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:13:13

Right.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:13:15

And, and people have on this podcast we've talked about the construction we did on our building.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:13:20

Their, theirs is three times the project.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:13:23

There may be more people over there, but.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:13:25

It is.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:13:26

A lot of, it's a lot.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:13:27

And you guys have pictures out there.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:13:29

It's, it's, I think you run it through your screens on, in your tap room.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:13:32

It's probably on your social media here and there.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:13:33

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:13:34

But it's impressive and it's intimidating what this group can do for as engineers and as fabricators, it's, it's something to see and your system, you guys system, I think all but your fermenters, you built your tanks.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:13:49

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:13:50

22

Jeff Fogle: 00:13:50

tanks.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:13:51

It's all, this is not.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:13:52

DIY stuff.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:13:53

This is not what it is to open a craft brewery.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:13:56

This is beyond what almost every craft brewery will ever have to go through.

Jeff Fogle: 00:14:01

That's what allowed us to open so quickly.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:14:04

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:14:04

Right.

Jeff Fogle: 00:14:05

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:14:05

Right.

Jeff Fogle: 00:14:05

Cheaply.

Jeff Fogle: 00:14:07

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:14:07

Cheaply.

Gary Arndt: 00:14:07

I haven't asked

Bobby Fleshman: 00:14:08

you this,

Bobby Fleshman: 00:14:08

but

Bobby Fleshman: 00:14:09

how

Gary Arndt: 00:14:09

old were you guys when you were coming up with the business plan,

Ben Fogle: 00:14:13

so that,

Gary Arndt: 00:14:13

because you're not old yet, so you've been doing it a while, so how, how old were you when you started doing this?

Ben Fogle: 00:14:23

Well, so the, the origin is wishy-washy.

Ben Fogle: 00:14:27

At least for me.

Ben Fogle: 00:14:28

Ben, uh, dad believes we were starting brewing earlier than I believe I wa I was, um, or at least my involvement, but the.

Ben Fogle: 00:14:41

Business plan, which I just took over from my dad.

Ben Fogle: 00:14:44

I was polishing in our, in our fifth year, which is the golden year of, of your bachelor's of, right?

Jeff Fogle: 00:14:51

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:14:51

The good one

Ben Fogle: 00:14:52

of college.

Ben Fogle: 00:14:53

Um, uh, so I would've been, yeah, 22 doing that.

Gary Arndt: 00:15:01

All right.

Gary Arndt: 00:15:02

So the follow up question to that is.

Gary Arndt: 00:15:05

Who the hell gives a 22-year-old money to open up a brewery?

Ben Fogle: 00:15:08

That's a great, and that's, we, we should actually do a whole other podcast

Gary Arndt: 00:15:12

on that.

Gary Arndt: 00:15:12

I mean, could, you could ask who gives anybody money to open up a brewery, but,

Ben Fogle: 00:15:15

well, and I think we've maybe talked a little bit about that in the past.

Ben Fogle: 00:15:19

Um, but that was a significant hurdle that we had to get over.

Ben Fogle: 00:15:26

Um,

Gary Arndt: 00:15:26

well, that's every business.

Ben Fogle: 00:15:27

Yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:15:28

That, but we also didn't.

Ben Fogle: 00:15:30

I know necessarily what we were doing.

Ben Fogle: 00:15:34

Um,

Jeff Fogle: 00:15:35

I mean the, at, at that time, right?

Jeff Fogle: 00:15:37

Like the t like 2009, 2010, it was hot.

Jeff Fogle: 00:15:42

Like Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:15:42

This someone

Bobby Fleshman: 00:15:43

was ramping

Jeff Fogle: 00:15:43

up.

Jeff Fogle: 00:15:44

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:15:44

It was like we were still on the like, boy, we gotta, we gotta, we want to do this.

Jeff Fogle: 00:15:48

Like someone's gonna,

Bobby Fleshman: 00:15:50

banks were seeing potential in all of these business plans.

Ben Fogle: 00:15:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:15:54

But also a great recession.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:15:56

That's true.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:15:57

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:15:57

No, yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:15:58

The, the craft industry is one way.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:16:00

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:16:00

So

Ben Fogle: 00:16:00

the reality was that mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:01

We could not get financing easily.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:06

Right.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:06

Uh, we actually went down some arguably shady roads,

Jeff Fogle: 00:16:11

rabbit holes.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:12

Yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:12

Uh,

Gary Arndt: 00:16:13

again, statute of limitations is over.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:15

Yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:15

And not, not illegal on our behalf, maybe on other halves, but, um, not nothing illegal.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:22

You, you just have to,

Jeff Fogle: 00:16:24

we are, we are squeaky clean,

Bobby Fleshman: 00:16:27

awkward, scree sounds as David edits the whole section.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:30

You get desperate.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:31

Um, anyway, uh, so that was really in the middle of our build out 'cause we had bought the place, we had bought the building in 2000, late 2010 with cash.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:42

Then did as much as we could

Jeff Fogle: 00:16:44

demo As much

Ben Fogle: 00:16:45

as we could.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:45

Ran.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:45

Yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:45

Ran out of money fairly quickly.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:48

Then it was like, alright, now we gotta go find, uh.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:51

Actual funding to complete the project investors investment, but also traditional, you know, funding.

Ben Fogle: 00:16:58

Um,

Jeff Fogle: 00:17:00

we all still had our jobs at this also at that point.

Jeff Fogle: 00:17:03

So this is all nights and nights and weekends kind of things.

Jeff Fogle: 00:17:06

So

Jeff Fogle: 00:17:06

I'm,

Gary Arndt: 00:17:06

I'm getting off on it.

Gary Arndt: 00:17:07

Yeah, yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:17:09

Where are we going with this?

Ben Fogle: 00:17:10

Uh,

Bobby Fleshman: 00:17:10

I

Gary Arndt: 00:17:10

don't know, but say it into the microphone.

Ben Fogle: 00:17:13

Um,

Bobby Fleshman: 00:17:14

we're talking about the business plan side of it.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:17:16

I mean, the business side of, of the whole project in, in general.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:17:19

Right.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:17:20

And how we, we were focusing on,

Jeff Fogle: 00:17:22

I think, I think Ben summed it up.

Jeff Fogle: 00:17:23

It was, it was a combination of personal Oh

Jeff Fogle: 00:17:25

yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:17:25

It was a terrible time to go find financing.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:17:27

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:17:28

Personal investment.

Jeff Fogle: 00:17:29

We, we, we summoned friends and family came up with a couple dozen, uh, interested partners and then conventional loans was a combination that finally pushed us.

Jeff Fogle: 00:17:44

Into the build out,

Gary Arndt: 00:17:45

because when we talk to brewers, there's always like, oh, there, these, there's the artistic side of coming up with the recipes.

Gary Arndt: 00:17:49

Yeah.

Gary Arndt: 00:17:49

And then there's the hard reality of the business part of it, because breweries are not cheap.

Gary Arndt: 00:17:55

Right.

Gary Arndt: 00:17:55

There's so much.

Gary Arndt: 00:17:56

And, and I don't know if it, if it helped that you were able to make so much of your own.

Gary Arndt: 00:18:00

Uh, absolutely.

Gary Arndt: 00:18:02

How much, just as a percentage, like how much do you think you saved on that?

Jeff Fogle: 00:18:06

Well, and to just back up a little bit, um.

Jeff Fogle: 00:18:10

Along with Carl, uh, Ben's friends consist of very talented, uh, young, very able-bodied college people, uh, engineers and who became partners of ours.

Jeff Fogle: 00:18:25

So they were really the muscle, the core muscle be behind our project.

Jeff Fogle: 00:18:30

Um, and I don't know where I was going with that.

Ben Fogle: 00:18:34

Well, uh, we put 25,000 man hours of.

Jeff Fogle: 00:18:37

Yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:18:37

Oh yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:18:37

And invested time into it.

Ben Fogle: 00:18:39

So it was a significant,

Jeff Fogle: 00:18:41

I mean, like the kitchen, you know, we have a kit, a small kitchen, well not small, but um, medium sized kitchen in our brewery.

Jeff Fogle: 00:18:48

We built that thing out ourselves.

Jeff Fogle: 00:18:51

You know, we just had the, the talent, the, the horsepower and very energetic and enthusiastic partners who just, you know, rose to the occasion, rose to the challenges.

Jeff Fogle: 00:19:04

Uh,

Ben Fogle: 00:19:05

but, but if I had to actually put a number to your question, I would guess

Ben Fogle: 00:19:10

three quarters of half million to three quarters of a million that we potentially saved on that is

Gary Arndt: 00:19:17

not insignificant.

Ben Fogle: 00:19:18

Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:19:18

Right.

Jeff Fogle: 00:19:19

I call chiller.

Ben Fogle: 00:19:21

Oh, I mean, you, you name it.

Ben Fogle: 00:19:22

That's just

Jeff Fogle: 00:19:22

one example.

Ben Fogle: 00:19:23

Yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:19:23

It,

Gary Arndt: 00:19:24

yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:19:25

Yeah.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:26

I mean that it's lot.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:27

That's huge.

Ben Fogle: 00:19:28

Yeah.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:29

I know Bobby has talked about the fact that good fortune.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:32

Of being next to you guys when they started this and, and, and having you as a resource to, to build this Yeah.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:39

And having that in-house.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:40

It just has to be such a leg up on almost, you know, any brewery for being able to make this a viable running concern.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:50

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:19:51

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:19:51

It was my wife, uh, who takes credit for suggesting to Bobby and Allison to buy this building, their building they're in, and, uh.

Jeff Fogle: 00:20:02

I think the conversation we've talked

Ben Fogle: 00:20:03

about that in the past

Jeff Fogle: 00:20:04

conversation went something like, I think, you know, after she suggested it, Bobby said, what?

Jeff Fogle: 00:20:12

You wouldn't mind us next door?

Jeff Fogle: 00:20:14

And Leah, my wife, said, absolutely not.

Jeff Fogle: 00:20:18

It'd be a, you know, great partnership.

Jeff Fogle: 00:20:20

So that's where that started.

Jeff Fogle: 00:20:22

Yep.

Jeff Fogle: 00:20:23

I'm pretty sure

Gary Arndt: 00:20:23

and did, does, Bobby just stepped out so we can talk about this.

Joel Hermansen: 00:20:27

He got replaced by me, which is a

Jeff Fogle: 00:20:29

nice.

David Kalsow: 00:20:30

Wow.

Joel Hermansen: 00:20:30

This is, yeah, it's this major step down.

Gary Arndt: 00:20:32

I know they use your facilities to do a lot of brewing, uh, because you have much bigger, does that help you guys that you can, you know, use some of that extra capacity that you have someone next door that'll, you know, take that up?

Ben Fogle: 00:20:47

Absolutely.

Ben Fogle: 00:20:47

It's a win-win.

Ben Fogle: 00:20:48

Um, yeah, we, we, we all want full tanks all the time.

Ben Fogle: 00:20:53

Um, so yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:20:55

That's great.

Ben Fogle: 00:20:56

Great.

Ben Fogle: 00:20:57

Uh, great benefit for sure.

Ben Fogle: 00:20:59

And actually it's parlayed into, uh, even today I've talked to another local brewers like, Hey, uh, can you help me out with some contract brewing?

Ben Fogle: 00:21:08

And so yeah, there's, um,

Joel Hermansen: 00:21:12

and, and I think people that come in here don't really understand the dynamic.

Joel Hermansen: 00:21:17

Because when they come in and, you know, I'm behind the bar here and they'll say, oh, where, where would I go and get a great burger?

Joel Hermansen: 00:21:24

Where would I go eat?

Joel Hermansen: 00:21:25

And I push 'em next door.

Joel Hermansen: 00:21:27

They're like, are you recommending your competitors?

Joel Hermansen: 00:21:29

I'm like, no.

Joel Hermansen: 00:21:31

Yeah, not, not, not at all.

Joel Hermansen: 00:21:33

Collaborators, there's more of a collaboration.

Jeff Fogle: 00:21:35

Absolutely.

Joel Hermansen: 00:21:36

Then it is a competitive environment.

Jeff Fogle: 00:21:39

Yeah, we,

Joel Hermansen: 00:21:39

and I don't think people get that.

Joel Hermansen: 00:21:41

They're always like, really?

Jeff Fogle: 00:21:42

We definitely rely on each business to succeed.

Jeff Fogle: 00:21:46

Yeah, we, we rely on Mick Fleshman to succeed and we'll do everything we can to help him

Gary Arndt: 00:21:53

from someone.

Gary Arndt: 00:21:53

You know, it comes here regularly.

Gary Arndt: 00:21:55

I don't, yes.

Gary Arndt: 00:21:56

You both serve beer and Yes.

Gary Arndt: 00:21:57

You both brew beer, but you guys do very different things.

Gary Arndt: 00:22:01

Absolutely.

Gary Arndt: 00:22:01

Your, you know, you do a lot with music.

Gary Arndt: 00:22:04

You got the full restaurant.

Gary Arndt: 00:22:06

Uh, there's a lot of people who come there for dinner and then that's not what Macle men's is.

Gary Arndt: 00:22:10

It's a very different.

Gary Arndt: 00:22:11

Vibe.

Joel Hermansen: 00:22:12

Yes.

Gary Arndt: 00:22:12

Um, so, and even the

Joel Hermansen: 00:22:13

beer lists are very different too.

Joel Hermansen: 00:22:15

Oh yeah, totally.

Joel Hermansen: 00:22:16

Oh yeah.

Joel Hermansen: 00:22:16

You know, uh, you guys have your lane.

Joel Hermansen: 00:22:17

We have our lane.

Joel Hermansen: 00:22:19

It just so happens that people like both lanes, so they go to each,

Gary Arndt: 00:22:23

we didn't talk about this last time we're on the show, but, uh, the future, Bobby's putting, we've talked about this.

Gary Arndt: 00:22:29

They're putting in some new tanks in whatever space they can find.

Gary Arndt: 00:22:32

And I know they've been talking about expanding and I think there have been discussions with you guys about expanding.

Gary Arndt: 00:22:41

Uh, what's the, what, whatever you can say the status or what, I don't even know if there is a status, but what do you think that you're gonna have to be growing your brewing operation in the future?

Gary Arndt: 00:22:52

Or at least be part of it?

Ben Fogle: 00:22:55

I have, I have to laugh a little bit 'cause I always appreciate and, and but also all, so I'm a very, I'm a, I'm a realist and so I'm, I'm around a lot of people that.

Ben Fogle: 00:23:08

I have a lot of ambitions and, uh, et cetera.

Ben Fogle: 00:23:14

Bobby is certainly one of them.

Ben Fogle: 00:23:16

Um, I think this whole, adding the, these tanks up here is gonna be, is gonna be huge and we're gonna be able to help with that as well.

Jeff Fogle: 00:23:25

I I,

Ben Fogle: 00:23:26

yeah, go ahead.

Jeff Fogle: 00:23:26

Between the two breweries, uh, like Ben said, Bobby, adding fermenters up here is huge.

Jeff Fogle: 00:23:33

Um, but between the two breweries, I, you know, AB F's got more space and we've got good bones over there.

Jeff Fogle: 00:23:41

Good infrastructure.

Jeff Fogle: 00:23:43

I, I'm actually the bottleneck I think to the expansion.

Jeff Fogle: 00:23:48

' Ben Fogle: cause we make everything ourselves.

Jeff Fogle: 00:23:49

Pardon me?

Ben Fogle: 00:23:50

Because we make everything ourselves.

Jeff Fogle: 00:23:52

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:23:52

And we self perform it.

Jeff Fogle: 00:23:53

And my time has been limited, but I'm more of my time is becoming available.

Jeff Fogle: 00:23:59

So I think once I get.

Jeff Fogle: 00:24:01

Through a few projects, we're gonna start on the expansion at not like outside dimension expansion, but internal expansion at A BF, which both breweries, again, are gonna rely on.

David Kalsow: 00:24:17

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen: 00:24:17

What will that do to your brewing capacity?

Joel Hermansen: 00:24:22

Like what's your, when you look long term, like what, what's the number that you're targeting?

Ben Fogle: 00:24:28

Oh, I don't actually, don't, I don't, I don't have.

Ben Fogle: 00:24:30

I don't have a long term number that I'm targeting, honestly.

Ben Fogle: 00:24:34

Okay.

Ben Fogle: 00:24:34

Um,

Joel Hermansen: 00:24:34

where are you at right now?

Ben Fogle: 00:24:37

We're actually only at like, probably 700 barrel.

Ben Fogle: 00:24:41

Well that, yeah, like 700 barrels a year, which is practically nothing.

Ben Fogle: 00:24:47

Um, MC Fleshman is actually bruised more than we do, uh, but we have the capability of brewing certainly more and more at one time.

Ben Fogle: 00:24:55

Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle: 00:24:57

So it's actually, so what we're talking about between MCF and A BF is

Ben Fogle: 00:25:06

making the most of both of our systems, whereas we can brew more bigger batches.

Ben Fogle: 00:25:13

Mcf MCF can brew more smaller batches.

Ben Fogle: 00:25:17

How will that, how, where does, where does a, B, F need some small batch assistance?

Ben Fogle: 00:25:23

And where does MCF need some?

Ben Fogle: 00:25:25

Big batch assistance and then just, you know,

Joel Hermansen: 00:25:28

and then

Ben Fogle: 00:25:28

sharing that.

Ben Fogle: 00:25:29

And then packaging.

Ben Fogle: 00:25:30

And then packaging which cold, cold packaging, which we have the room for and et cetera.

Gary Arndt: 00:25:34

Bobby mentioned in passing once the, I don't know how serious it is, the idea of installing a pipe mm-hmm.

Gary Arndt: 00:25:39

Over the alley.

Gary Arndt: 00:25:41

You think that would ever happen

Joel Hermansen: 00:25:42

if the schematics are on the buildings?

Ben Fogle: 00:25:45

Yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:25:46

And it's

Joel Hermansen: 00:25:46

already gone and it's on, when you walk out these stairs down here, you can see where it says, uh, pipe valve, where his vision is.

Ben Fogle: 00:25:53

Yep.

Joel Hermansen: 00:25:55

He talks about this pipe all the time.

Joel Hermansen: 00:25:56

No, I've never, I've never heard anyone talk about pipe This month.

Ben Fogle: 00:26:01

We've already gotten the approval, uh, basically from the city and yeah, it's, it just got shelved a little bit.

Ben Fogle: 00:26:07

Honestly, it probably won't happen until next year, but I see it happening next time.

Ben Fogle: 00:26:10

Could be

Jeff Fogle: 00:26:10

in the spring.

Ben Fogle: 00:26:11

Yeah.

Gary Arndt: 00:26:12

And would you take the lead on that?

Gary Arndt: 00:26:14

Uh, yeah, kind of.

Jeff Fogle: 00:26:16

Yep.

Gary Arndt: 00:26:17

How much easier would that make things?

Jeff Fogle: 00:26:19

Well.

Jeff Fogle: 00:26:20

We can share utilities.

Gary Arndt: 00:26:22

That's huge.

Gary Arndt: 00:26:23

Yeah,

Jeff Fogle: 00:26:23

that's huge.

Jeff Fogle: 00:26:24

That's probably the biggest piece.

Jeff Fogle: 00:26:26

Um, and then, uh, co-packing would be huge.

Gary Arndt: 00:26:32

Alright, um, last question.

Gary Arndt: 00:26:37

I mean, we're at Lager Fest recording this.

Gary Arndt: 00:26:39

It's gonna be over by the time everyone hears it.

Gary Arndt: 00:26:42

Uh, someone comes into a BF, never been there before.

Gary Arndt: 00:26:45

What do you recommend?

Gary Arndt: 00:26:47

What's your signature beer?

Ben Fogle: 00:26:48

I hope we have different answers, actually.

Ben Fogle: 00:26:51

Um,

Jeff Fogle: 00:26:52

you, you go,

Ben Fogle: 00:26:53

okay.

Ben Fogle: 00:26:54

light lager.

Jeff Fogle: 00:26:55

Hi, Carl.

Jeff Fogle: 00:26:56

You, you go Carl.

Jeff Fogle: 00:26:58

You go

Jeff Fogle: 00:26:59

Carl.

Jeff Fogle: 00:26:59

How's.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:00

I was gonna be a little snarky and say, you should try the old fashioned.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:04

That's on tap but Oh geez.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:06

I, I don't know.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:07

I'm a, I'm a, a hops guy.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:09

That's why when I come to Fleshman, they're usually ringing the bell with a, I've,

Joel Hermansen: 00:27:13

I

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:13

won't pour anything

Joel Hermansen: 00:27:14

else for you.

Joel Hermansen: 00:27:15

I never

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:15

have.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:16

I get like, he just kind of, he just, he'll just, I'm bringing a turnout already now.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:19

He'll literally just stand there and stare at me until I change my order.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:22

It's, I'm staring at

Ben Fogle: 00:27:23

you right

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:23

now.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:23

I know.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:24

I can feel it and it's warm and uncomfortable.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:27

Um.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:29

But I, I gotta go with the juicy face.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:33

It's not, no, I'm not, I'm not afraid.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:36

I'm just respectful.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:38

And, uh, that's an, uh, Jeff, your favorite beer at a BF right now.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:47

Well, um.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:51

I, I'm gonna deviate from that question.

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:53

I'm, I'm, I'm gonna go back to the original question of what such a loss, what would I recommend?

Jeff Fogle: 00:27:58

Um, I think our half of EIN is pretty, pretty unique.

Jeff Fogle: 00:28:03

Uh, pretty epic.

Jeff Fogle: 00:28:06

So

Joel Hermansen: 00:28:07

Ben, I have one more quick question for you.

Joel Hermansen: 00:28:10

I've been meaning to ask you this for a long time.

Joel Hermansen: 00:28:12

Who's on your Mount Rushmore Brewing in the United States?

Joel Hermansen: 00:28:16

You can only put four people on this Mount Rushmore.

Joel Hermansen: 00:28:19

Go.

Joel Hermansen: 00:28:19

I

Ben Fogle: 00:28:19

really put,

Joel Hermansen: 00:28:21

oh, it's a hundred percent.

Joel Hermansen: 00:28:21

You know,

Ben Fogle: 00:28:21

I'm

Joel Hermansen: 00:28:22

not putting you on the spot.

Ben Fogle: 00:28:22

I'm not, I'm not Bobby.

Joel Hermansen: 00:28:24

I know you're Ben.

Ben Fogle: 00:28:25

Yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:28:25

You're taller, but that doesn't matter.

Ben Fogle: 00:28:28

I think we're the same.

Ben Fogle: 00:28:29

I probably, but

David Kalsow: 00:28:32

Pete Yeah, you can put Bobby on

Ben Fogle: 00:28:36

actually.

Ben Fogle: 00:28:36

Yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:28:37

I mean that's, that's a, that's a good point.

Ben Fogle: 00:28:38

Bobby would definitely be on mine.

Ben Fogle: 00:28:40

Uh, for sure.

Ben Fogle: 00:28:41

I, yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:28:42

Uh, boy, I, uh.

Ben Fogle: 00:28:45

Um, exact, so Bobby would have an answer to this, which is why he's on my Mount Rushmore.

David Kalsow: 00:28:51

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Fogle: 00:28:53

I, I hear you guys, uh, you know, we, I think we're all fans of Tiny The Elder Vinny Zo.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:00

Pardon me?

Joel Hermansen: 00:29:00

Vinny.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:02

Joel.

Ben Fogle: 00:29:02

Can I spread this around?

Ben Fogle: 00:29:03

Is, is that okay?

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:04

Yeah.

Ben Fogle: 00:29:05

Okay.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:06

We're not, we're not smart enough to answer a whole question.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:10

We need to.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:11

Well, just, just like we're not good enough to build a brewery, break it down on our own.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:16

Uh, there's strength in security in numbers here.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:20

Uh, I would say it's probably changed over time.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:24

Uh, if you asked me like five years ago, probably some of those breweries have been sold or don't even exist anymore, five years before.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:32

That is probably a different scene.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:34

Uh, but like Sierra Nevada still exists and that was kind of one of the, the entryways in.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:39

Uh, so

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:39

Ken

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:40

Grossman on Yep.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:42

Gonna be

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:42

a future guest on our podcast.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:44

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:44

Shout

Ben Fogle: 00:29:44

out to Ken.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:45

And there you go.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:46

Kenny.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:46

Kenny G I'm told he likes to go by

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:49

and, and inspirational to a BF was, uh, Keon.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:53

That's,

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:54

that's a good point.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:54

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:55

Yeah.

Jeff Fogle: 00:29:55

I mean, so it's a great place.

Jeff Fogle: 00:30:00

It was, uh, like it's right in our college town, so huge bias.

Jeff Fogle: 00:30:05

Like, like obviously.

Jeff Fogle: 00:30:07

Love it.

Jeff Fogle: 00:30:08

Go back there every single year, but just, I feel like sitting in that place on like a winter night with the bottom of your jeans soaked.

Jeff Fogle: 00:30:20

'cause you walked a mile through like snowy sidewalks and slush to get there and then sitting there, uh, like Thursday, it is usually Thursday night after a long day, an easy day on Friday.

Jeff Fogle: 00:30:35

And just having a beer with your butts,

Ben Fogle: 00:30:37

eating some peanuts, throw 'em on the floor

Jeff Fogle: 00:30:39

and pines for Pines for two bucks.

Ben Fogle: 00:30:40

Two bucks,

Jeff Fogle: 00:30:41

two bucks, and a bag of peanuts for a dollar, something that college kids could afford.

Jeff Fogle: 00:30:47

And that kind of started the, we went to

Gary Arndt: 00:30:49

college at different times because when I drank underage, it was a quarter,

Ben Fogle: 00:30:55

well, there were,

Gary Arndt: 00:30:56

that got shut down quite, who was the

Joel Hermansen: 00:30:57

Pharaoh back then?

Ben Fogle: 00:30:59

There were quarter nights at

Gary Arndt: 00:31:00

the other, the Deutsche House, which was like a block from Macal.

Ben Fogle: 00:31:05

Well, there's

Joel Hermansen: 00:31:05

a half.

Joel Hermansen: 00:31:05

This was McAllister's third year in operation.

Joel Hermansen: 00:31:07

For those who are listening,

Ben Fogle: 00:31:09

there's your half-ass answer to that.

Ben Fogle: 00:31:11

That's two.

Joel Hermansen: 00:31:12

I mean, there was, there was pieces of, of an answer.

Joel Hermansen: 00:31:14

You know what, Patreon, we're gonna put it on Patreon.

Joel Hermansen: 00:31:17

We're gonna, we're gonna circle back to this at some point.

Joel Hermansen: 00:31:19

It'll be on Patreon.

Gary Arndt: 00:31:21

Well, that's gonna conclude this episode of Respecting the Beer.

Gary Arndt: 00:31:26

The producer of Respecting the Beer is David Kaso, and I assure you, without David, there would be no show.

Gary Arndt: 00:31:30

Make sure to check out the Facebook group to find what's happening between the episodes and join the Patreon page where you can get access to all the bits that get edited out of the show and special beers that are available only to Patreon members.

Gary Arndt: 00:31:42

And until next time, please remember to respect the beer.