Photographing the Hidden Pubs of England w/ Horst Friedrichs

Speaker: 00:00:05

McFleshman's: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Respecting the Beer.

Speaker: 00:00:08

My name is Gary Arndt.

Speaker: 00:00:09

With me again, as usual, is the Wizard of Wart, the Baron of Beer, the Maharajah of Malt, Mr. Bobby Fleshman.

Speaker: 00:00:17

This is, this is your last, uh, time hosting officially, right?

Speaker: 00:00:20

So you had s- you prepared all that.

Speaker: 00:00:22

As regular.

Speaker: 00:00:22

As a regular.

Speaker: 00:00:23

That, that's a whole line we could have gone down in, in future episodes.

Speaker: 00:00:26

Nice.

Speaker: 00:00:27

We got a great guest today, uh, coming to us from London, England, with the very British name, Mr. Horst Friedrichs.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:00:36

Perfect.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:00:36

Yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:00:37

Thank you for having me.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:00:38

McFleshman's: Why don't we start out how, where, where are you originally from, and how did you wind up in, in England?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:00:44

So originally I'm from good old Germany, Frankfurt, and I'm half Greek, half German actually, and, uh, yeah,

Horst Friedrichs: 00:00:55

McFleshman's: Kinda like the British royal family.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:00:57

Yes, indeed.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:01:00

But, uh, not so good to mention right now the Br- uh, the, the, the royal family.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:01:05

It's a bit crazy at the moment.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:01:09

However yeah 1997 I moved to England from Germany.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:01:15

I drove over with my BMW, arrived in London, and I loved it.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:01:24

I don't look back, so I'm here almost over 30 years.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:01:30

McFleshman's: Well, how do you compare that to coming from beer garden culture to the pub culture?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:01:36

Uh, it seems like maybe they're both very beer-centric locations.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:01:41

Yeah, absolutely.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:01:43

I mean, bef- b- before coming to London, I had about two years living in in Bavaria, in Munich.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:01:51

So,

Horst Friedrichs: 00:01:52

McFleshman's: Oh, yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:02:09

So that was a taster, so before coming to England.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:02:12

But it took, took a while till I got interested again into beer because when I came to England, I was interested in the British subcultures.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:02:22

You know, the mods, the rockers, uh, cycle style, coffee style.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:02:29

And of course the pubs, they're also sort of a subculture.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:02:34

They are very important because they say that, uh, pubs are the soul of the Brits.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:02:43

So yeah, I was waiting till the end because as a German, you need to be careful if you don't really know so well about pubs,

Horst Friedrichs: 00:02:53

then...

Horst Friedrichs: 00:02:55

McFleshman's: one of the things I should mention, and the reason why you're on the show, is that you are a photographer and, uh, you have two

Horst Friedrichs: 00:03:01

books.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:03:01

Uh, one is, uh, "Local Legends: The Hidden Pubs of London," and the other is "The Great Pubs of England." So you've spent a good time documenting, uh, pubs, uh, across the country and in London specifically.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:03:14

Absolutely, Gary.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:03:15

I first did a book, uh, with my colleague Stuart Husband, uh, on the great pubs of England.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:03:23

And that was kind of like a be- good beginning because I, as I mentioned before, I didn't know so well about pubs.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:03:32

And Stuart is a Brit, so he should know well about pubs.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:03:38

He knows well about pubs, but he was more interested in, in the food and not so much into the beer.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:03:45

So I had to do the second book What is more focused on the wet pubs.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:03:52

You know, there's a big difference between a pub that serves food and a pub that only serves beer or, or drinks.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:04:01

And if it comes to food, you c- maybe fi- get some crisps or a pie, this, or sort of thing.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:04:09

But not uh, the pub food is also delicious.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:04:12

I mean, I, I love eating, but a proper pub serves only drinks.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:04:20

McFleshman's: I've heard this a couple times, but isn't the most popular dish served at pubs, uh, tikka masala?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:04:27

Yeah, occasionally you find... There is a pub actually in Pupney down here, uh, where, close where I live.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:04:35

And that pub you, you're actually allowed to order takeaway.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:04:39

And it's m- most of the takeaway that people take is, uh, Asian food.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:04:44

And yeah, they have their pint there or Guinness, and enjoy the food.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:04:50

Because they don't have a kitchen.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:04:51

It's sometimes a bit complicated to have a kitchen.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:04:56

And some pubs, they like to focus really on the beers, on the ciders, on, on, on the drinks, what is, I think, quite understandable.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:05:07

McFleshman's: I don't know how much you know about our brewery, but my wife and I made a couple of trips, one to Cologne and one to pretty much all of the UK outside of, of Ireland.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:05:16

And, uh, we were inspired-- She has since gone to Ireland herself, but we were inspired by the, the pub culture there, and we built something like that here.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:05:24

And what we built was just as

Horst Friedrichs: 00:05:25

you described, focused on the liquid.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:05:28

We're very much focused... We're a brewery, yes, but we're also a p- uh, a pub to the front-facing side.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:05:33

And I know what you mean by that.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:05:34

If you bring food into the equation, it's a different business.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:05:37

Not better nor worse, just very different.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:05:40

And we promote conversation therefore.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:05:41

It's, uh, it's a lot easier when you're not sitting at a table with food to intermingle with the adjacent tables, we find.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:05:48

Yeah, that's right.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:05:49

And yeah, as you say, it's the atmosphere.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:05:52

For me it was always, uh, it sounds a bit funny, but a, a proper pub I quite like... I'm into carpets, and it's the atmosphere.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:06:02

You know, you come into the pub, it has this cozy feeling, this warmness, the cracking wood.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:06:10

It's almost like entering a movie.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:06:12

And it's, yeah, like you said, the, the atmosphere.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:06:16

And and also the sound.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:06:19

Uh, some pubs here they don't play music.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:06:22

So, back in the days it was it was not a common thing with music.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:06:26

And- Even there are landlords or landladies that they would not allow a mobile phone that people, you know, because there are some tourists, they're coming, they're taking pictures.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:06:37

You should really suck in the atmosphere of, of... It's almost like an institution, like a holy place, a temple.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:06:46

Temple of beer maybe, if you can say.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:06:50

McFleshman's: When we opened, we threatened to install a... We built the-- We actually renovated this building, and we threatened to put wire in the walls, so, uh, chicken wire.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:06:59

That would then prevent any cell signal, and that would force people to talk to each other

Horst Friedrichs: 00:07:05

Yeah, I, I, I read you, you, uh, you, you're, uh, you worked once for NASA, so I believe you.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:07:11

Yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:07:13

McFleshman's: Yeah, it's called a Faraday cage.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:07:15

At this... So I know we're talking about English pubs, but have you seen the documentary "The Irish Pub"?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:07:21

I didn't see the documentary, but I still dreaming to do a book about Irish pubs, and I know they're very different, and they're very special, and they even, uh, the UNESCO thinks about protecting them b- as a, as a heritage.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:07:38

Yeah, I mean, I'm, I would be quite open to... I love Ireland and I love Guinness, so yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:07:46

Let's do a book about Irish pubs.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:07:50

McFleshman's: Uh, when you set out to, to do these books how do you identify what, what, what, you know, the g- the greatest pubs, how do you identify that?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:08:01

That's a very good question.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:08:03

Yeah, Gary.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:08:03

McFleshman's: you're looking at?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:08:05

Yeah, I wish I could put all that information into a big computer, and then he, he will spit it out, and it's not that easy.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:08:15

So research is a big, it's a big, uh, part of the job.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:08:20

So you start researching, Googling find other books.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:08:25

You talk to people.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:08:28

That was for the first book, and to be honest with Local Legends: The Hidden Pubs of London, I was actually approached by John Warland, who is a pub guide.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:08:41

So he is a really professional pub guide.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:08:44

He makes a living showing, uh, people pubs around London, and he approached me and said like, "So let's do now the book with the proper pubs." And I thought like, "He's quite arrogant." But I understood, uh, after this journey, so I was actually also... He teached me to- And he also respected my work because maybe I'm coming s- from, from the photographer side.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:09:11

So, you know, there are some no-gos when m- there, there are pubs.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:09:16

Christmas is, for example, the, the worst time for me to take pictures of pubs because of the Christmas decoration.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:09:24

And it's not only Christmas decoration.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:09:27

There's now sometimes flags, uh, and so rainbow flags, Union Jack flags, all that kind of decorations.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:09:38

You, you, you, you, you ... Sometimes people get very offended.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:09:42

But I try to explain them.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:09:44

When I do a book or a photograph, it cannot be dated, so it should be as neutral as possible so that picture's al- also relevant in 100 years.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:09:56

So yeah, I want the pub really, really pure and, you know, I start very early in the morning.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:10:04

Before the pub opens, I arrive with sometimes a lot of equipment because I have some lamps, I have tripods a lot of tools.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:10:14

You have to sometimes remove, like, a lot of crazy things.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:10:19

I nearly once removed a fruit machine because it was ... It's, it's sometimes the light that obstructs my photography.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:10:30

Yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:10:31

But it was, it was possible, and once you're inside a pub, you know, hands on, you work, you start taking pictures, and it can take up to four or five hours till I get kicked out when the, when, when the punters arrive, and they're all sometimes, they're on the door, you know, before, before the pub actually opens.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:10:54

And these are customers, you know.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:10:58

You know, for them, the pub is this community place.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:11:01

They come early in the morning to have their first pint, probably very old people, lonely.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:11:08

So for them it's, it's, it's a lifeline.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:11:11

It's a surviving, uh, place.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:11:14

McFleshman's: I was gonna ask about how much do people play into your photography, the, the publicans and the, and the regular patrons?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:11:22

Definitely.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:11:23

I think the, uh, landlords and landladies the owners, they're ve- very important.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:11:29

Sometimes it's also the owner is, is a brewery, and, uh, if it's an independent pub, I try to get actually the landlady or the landlord.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:11:39

Can be also sometimes not easy.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:11:42

They're, they're sometimes very eccentric people.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:11:47

And yeah, and it's, it's great to meet them and because I'm, I've been for my whole life to make- money to make an earning, I was a ph- a portrait photographer and I photographed a lot of celebrities, famous people from Bill Gates to Robbie Williams.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:12:11

McFleshman's: I saw Max Richter, which I was kind of impressed with, 'cause he's one of my favorite composers.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:12:16

Oh yeah, and that was a nice one.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:12:18

That was like two years ago in his studio and he's pretty much quite, uh, you know, very quiet, sh- almost shy person.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:12:32

Yeah, but you know, with, uh, with, uh, I had one situation with with a landlady.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:12:38

I, I'm not gonna say the name which pub it was.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:12:41

It's a great pub.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:12:42

Uh, but the landlady is known for being a bit rude.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:12:46

She's actually not British.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:12:47

She's, uh, she's from Australia originally.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:12:50

And it was on the telephone when I told her about my project.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:12:55

It was for the Hidden Pubs book, the local legends, and she said "So what do you want?" I said, "Uh, yeah, uh, my name is Horst Friedrichs." And then she, at some point she said, "Can you not speak proper English?"

Horst Friedrichs: 00:13:10

Because I know I have a, I have a German accent.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:13:14

But the funny thing was when I did, I went to the pub, take, took the pictures, I had a lunch, and then the landlady came to me and she gave me a big hug, and she said, "Are you all right? Are you gonna be fine with all that equipment?" Because I use a bicycle, so I got this sort almost like, uh, bicycle full of bags and put my tripods on it.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:13:41

And she, we were al- almost like in arms, and that's, that was very funny after that really troubling telephone call.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:13:51

McFleshman's: Personality.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:13:52

So it's a bit- an adventure, so.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:13:55

McFleshman's: Uh, your book on the hidden pubs of London.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:13:57

I, I thought it was interesting because I've been to London many times, and there are these pubs that are, like, in an alley, or if you didn't know it was there, you wouldn't... I mean, it's not sitting right out in the street and it's really obvious.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:14:11

Yet they have a client- you know, a neighborhood clientele, and they're these, I don't know, cozy little places.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:14:18

And they often spill out into the alley and drink their beer.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:14:20

Oh, yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:14:20

Yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:14:21

Gary, very well observed.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:14:24

Because there is a term, and I, I, I love that as a German, uh, the, the backstreet boozer, yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:14:31

So when you would say that to a German, they would say like, "Oh, holy hell. What is that? A backstreet boozer." But it's exactly like Gary said, you know, it's this tucked away pub, and so it's a bit difficult to find.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:14:47

And yeah, that is the proper boozer, and that's part of the thing, and we tried that as well on the cover with, So we were thinking there's a pub in, uh, South London and, uh, forgot the name right now, but it's exactly like Gary said.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:15:03

It's like a bit setting back into the back street, and it's been photographed from a lot of, uh, people, but that one serves food.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:15:14

So we, we choose, for the local legends, we choose the, uh, let me look the name.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:15:25

Starting to forget.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:15:27

So here, yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:15:28

Is, is the Cockpit, uh, because it used to be a place, uh, where they had cock fights in the pub, imagine, back in the days.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:15:38

And that exactly had that yeah, this, this feeling.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:15:41

It was, you know, not obvious, not on the high street.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:15:43

It was tucked away.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:15:45

McFleshman's: So Gary, Gary mentioned cathedrals.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:15:47

I've been, I've been listening to you and thinking about how much the pub parallels the cathedral.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:15:52

Uh, there's craftsmanship there.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:15:55

There is, uh, it just, it's emotionally, it's provoke-- it's provocative when it comes to the community.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:16:02

Uh, I guess what I'm trying to get at is where is the pub now?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:16:06

I know that your role is, is in documenting the, the pub in some way, and I, I wonder what your take is on its role in, in society in England and elsewhere.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:16:18

Yeah, this is a very, very, uh, good question, and it's always, uh, discussed because the pub is a, a national institution.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:16:28

And so quite recently I saw, uh, a Scottish artist who actually set up an art space like an artistic pub, so it was his dream from his childhood.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:16:43

What I found quite interesting because I grew up in, in Germany near Cologne and as you know, The beer is quite small there, the kölsch, you know, you, you can constantly...

Horst Friedrichs: 00:16:55

McFleshman's: two major influences, yes, the trip to Cologne

Horst Friedrichs: 00:16:58

I love it.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:16:58

It's always fresh.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:17:00

And my uncle so, uh, my aunt was, uh, the sister of my mother, so the Greek side, and my uncle was, uh, German.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:17:08

And it was always a very secret about him because apparently he, he, he worked for the German secret service, and was a interesting fella because he took me always to the German pub in the Kneipe.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:17:25

We call it Kneipe.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:17:27

And he put a lot of money in the, in the gambling machine, and there were... You know, there was... B- back in the days, everybody smoked, so it was quite like, you know, almost like magical, the smoke.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:17:41

These dudes sitting there in the pub talking, and I was a little boy.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:17:46

I loved the, the machines, and I loved the smell also of the beer because that mix with tobacco and beer, it was all like, you know, the adult world.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:18:00

And I guess because also I was very small, so I could see, looked always up, and there were these guys and, you know, like quite shady characters.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:18:13

Because I remember there was a guy, he always talked about Hamburg, about the sailors and the boxers.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:18:20

So it was really it was really interesting, and more interesting than the TV, because German TV was, back in the days, very boring, you know.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:18:31

Everything was dubbed with German.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:18:35

There was, everything was like, I don't know.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:18:38

It was a interesting world, and I guess I kind of like rediscovered this with the, with the pubs here in England.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:18:45

They, they are absolutely atmospheric, and the people that drink there and go there they are amazing characters I met there.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:18:55

And you know, an interesting point is in Local Legends: Hidden Pubs of London, the foreword is written by Suggs, what is the singer of Madness iconic band.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:08

Uh, they're still around.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:09

And there's a pub in London called the... In, in Camden, you know.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:15

In Camden Town, it's a pub.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:19

It's called The, Dublin Arms.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:23

Yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:23

It's called the Dublin Arms, and it's a music pub.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:26

So music also takes sometimes ... And there are some pubs, they also act as music venues.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:34

I guess in the States too.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:35

I mean, you have, uh, tonight you have a, a, a concert on, no, in the pub?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:42

You

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:42

McFleshman's: Yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:42

it would be Irish-- Uh, Yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:44

there's an Irish session tonight.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:45

Mm-hmm.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:45

Yeah, I mean, Irish pubs are super, uh, music influenced.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:49

But I remember when I did, uh, subcultures, uh, so the Teddy Boys, they had this pub in Luton, yeah, outside of London where the airport is.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:19:58

It was a really working class pub, but, you know, it was all about rock and roll, and, you know, the, the guys really dressed well with their suits and, you know, the, the quiff the sideburns, and the bolo tie and, you know, and rock and roll music, and then bands playing.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:20:20

It was quite intense and, uh, unique.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:20:24

And coming back to the guy who wrote the foreword, uh, Suggs from Madness, he said they got famous.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:20:32

Be- before they got famous they played in pubs, and the pubs, they were kind of like an ent- entry to, to go to the bigger venues.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:20:41

So if you see British stars here, like Amy Winehouse, she started to work in a pub.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:20:49

So a lot of things, they start there in the pub because the community is kind of like a place where you start your career and then you go for bigger venues or for bigger places.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:21:04

McFleshman's: Closing as fast as they once were.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:21:06

It feels like there was a blip where they were dropping off fairly quickly, but maybe I've heard recently that's turning around.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:21:13

Yeah, look, Bobby, it's also, you know, it's news that sells.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:21:16

I mean, I don't want to talk it down, especially not as a German.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:21:20

And there is a risk for many reasons.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:21:22

But I think when a landlady or landlord does the pub properly, you know, and this is a lot of work.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:21:30

If you do your job properly, you will always survive in a, in a place like London.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:21:36

And you may charge a lot of money for the, uh, for the drink because, you know, the prices are crazy.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:21:44

There are several problems.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:21:45

People drink less.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:21:47

Young people drink less alcohol.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:21:50

That's one problem.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:21:52

And then you go outside of London where, you know, you have a village and there is not so many punters, customers coming and you have to maybe also serve food to make it more attractive.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:22:05

So that might may be a problem.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:22:08

But- I think the, the pubs that close down, most of the time they're not well.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:22:15

I think they, they did the job not really proper, you know.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:22:19

Because you know how it is.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:22:20

Uh, I guess, uh, you know, with your pub, you've, you do a good beer.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:22:27

You're dedicated brewers.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:22:29

You attract people probably coming from New York to your place.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:22:34

They want a proper, uh, craft beer, you know.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:22:37

Because you're dedicated.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:22:39

You, you put all your love with your wife.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:22:42

You work day and night, do a amazing product, and I think that screams for success.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:22:50

McFleshman's: So, uh, we usually ask this question at the end of an interview, but this is gonna take you a while to answer, so I think we're gonna ask it now.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:22:56

Uh, what would be-- Let's just say, what would be the top three or four pubs that everyone should visit in London or even in England?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:23:05

'Cause I know I've been... We had a lot of guests on here.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:23:08

John Keeling was the brewmaster from Fuller's, had some

Horst Friedrichs: 00:23:10

suggestions too.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:23:12

Uh, I figured you might have a couple.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:23:15

Yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:23:15

There is, there is definitely, I mean, there's one pub that is absolutely... It's maybe not central London, so it's it's called The Palm Tree.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:23:26

It's a weird name, but it's, it's called The Palm Tree, and it's in in the East End.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:23:35

And it's an absolutely diamond boozer because it's... Y- you enter this place, and it's like a time capsuler.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:23:43

It's, since the '70s, nothing has changed.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:23:48

It's, you go to the bathroom, you, it's, it's absolutely amazing.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:23:53

And they have, uh, Fridays they have live music, and it's this old gentleman you know, in white dinner jackets.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:00

They you know, it's a little bit, a little knee-up dancing thing.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:05

But there's also a lot of young people because it's absolutely became a bit like a hipster trendy thing.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:12

But it's good.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:13

It's, it's, it's... And very important, bring cash.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:19

They only accept cash.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:21

No credit cards.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:23

McFleshman's: I imagine they have one of those old cash registers as well.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:26

Yeah, I know the one.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:27

Yep.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:27

probably.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:28

They have.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:29

It's actually, I photographed it in the book.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:31

So The Palm Tree is great.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:34

Yeah, it's, it's not you know, the travel zones in London, you have one, two, three, and four.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:39

So it's probably zone two or zone three.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:43

In central London, it's called The French House.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:24:47

It's, it's an amazing pub, uh, in Soho and I like this pub because the landlady is spectacular, uh, as well her team there, the ba- barmaids is always, you know, she, she has these also very young d- dancers who work in Soho.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:25:07

The punters, the whole demographic in that pub is, uh, is amazing.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:25:13

There's upstairs is a restaurant, so it's, it's, it's separated from the pub.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:25:18

A really good restaurant, so when you're hungry you can go upstairs when you get a table.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:25:24

Yeah, and of course my ... So I live in Kingston upon Thames, and walking distance from my house is a place called The Park Tavern.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:25:36

That's also a beautiful a very cozy pub with a gas fire and, you know, you can watch football or uh, football and they particularly keen on not cricket uh, is it football?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:25:52

Yeah, it's

Horst Friedrichs: 00:25:53

football.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:25:54

McFleshman's: Mm-hmm.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:25:55

They love football.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:25:57

McFleshman's: Uh, do you have any other future beer/pub-related projects in the works that you're looking at?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:26:04

Well, if that comes along well, the next book is about watch- Swiss watchmakers, and then I'm doing also, it's almost, uh, finalized, a book on Liverpool Liverpool FC fan supporters.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:26:21

Because that's also an, uh, an interesting subcultures, and I spent three and a half years photographing, uh, the football supporters in Anfield Road in Liverpool.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:26:32

And it's interesting because people from all over the world, you know, there's a lot of, uh, supporters coming from the States.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:26:40

I had this great couple from Miami.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:26:43

So I, I took, in a period over three years pictures there as well in the pubs.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:26:49

They are, the pubs are, uh, very unique.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:26:55

So they are ... The whole pub is full of scarves and flags and, you know, as more up you go in England to the north, like Manchester, Liverpool, people love singing.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:27:09

The football fans, they sing, they have live music in the pub.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:27:13

So you see, the pubs, they always, they come through.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:27:18

But not in the watchmakers.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:27:19

The, the Swiss, they are not really

Horst Friedrichs: 00:27:22

McFleshman's: you go to, uh, La Chaux-de-Fonds?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:27:24

I think it is in Switzerland, the,

Horst Friedrichs: 00:27:27

the watchmaking

Horst Friedrichs: 00:27:27

Yeah, you're right.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:27:28

Yeah, yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:27:29

But it's, it's such an intense, uh, job, uh, because, you know, it's all this macro and small watches, and it's quite, I'm not saying that it's easy to, to get in all the pubs, you know.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:27:42

It's, uh, you know, photography in those days is all about access.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:27:46

If you want to create something interesting, you get-- need to get access.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:27:50

And with the watchmakers, it was really, really difficult.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:27:55

They're very private.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:27:58

McFleshman's: That, that reminds me for whatever reason, uh, my wife Allison and I went on a beer trip nor- in northern England, uh, Leeds, York.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:07

Ended up in Tadcaster, the home of Sam Smith and John Smith and another brewery.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:12

And there is no brewery that has tighter lips than Sam Smith.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:17

You cannot get past the lobby.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:18

They were surprised to see any tourists come to an 8,000 person town to see their open fermentation vessels.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:25

Uh, so I, yeah, I know what that means when, when you run against it w- in the beer world.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:30

There are, there are some places that are difficult to, to get access to,

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:33

Oh, yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:34

Yeah, yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:34

Sam is, is a particular.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:36

Uh, you know, he, he, he, I also have, uh, photographed two pubs, uh, from Samuel Smith, yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:44

McFleshman's: Yep.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:45

and you know, he-- there's one pub you're not allowed to swear.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:51

So no swearing.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:53

So yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:54

McFleshman's: Excellent.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:55

Good

Horst Friedrichs: 00:28:55

yeah, it's, uh, it's not only tight-lipped, uh, I can imagine.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:29:00

But it, it was quite difficult.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:29:02

Uh, I agree with you.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:29:03

I had also some not so easy moments, uh, with them.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:29:07

But I sent a copy of, uh, Great Pubs of England to the I guess it's the CEO from, uh, Samuel Smith, uh, from, uh, so the director.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:29:19

Sorry, uh, the director.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:29:21

And so when I photographed the pub in London I'm looking it up.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:29:29

He actually specially came down to London, and he said "Look we are so happy with the job you did about, you know, the Great Pubs of England, how you photograph the pubs.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:29:39

Really, really happy." That happened all the time, you know, with with people there.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:29:43

First, because they don't know you, they're quite, uh, suspicious and... But when they see, you know, it's in a book, and it looks great, they're very grateful.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:29:54

That's really fun.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:29:56

McFleshman's: And I, I love that about the English culture.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:29:58

I'm sure that that's-- Well, it cuts two ways, but the tied house, it, it, they-- These breweries had

Horst Friedrichs: 00:30:05

control of the liquid all the way into the hands of the consumer, and I know that's difficult when you're a small brewery.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:30:10

I am one trying to get into that market.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:30:13

But in any case, it makes for a, an entire encapsulated experience that's, that's curated by that brewer.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:30:20

And those pubs have so much character.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:30:24

Yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:30:25

Yeah, it's, you know, of course, I, I guess, you know, every place that makes things they are, of course, sec- secretive.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:30:34

Uh, whether you, you go to a whiskey distillery I, I, you know, I, I did also book on scotch in Scotland, and there, you know, uh, and you as a brew master, you, you know, there was the risk also of you know, because it's spirit, it can it can explode.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:30:53

You can have an explosion if you do something wrong.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:30:57

So you have to, you know, whether you have an insurance or you have to do certain te- tests so y- you know how to behave.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:31:07

You have no idea how, uh, unrespectful not only, you know, when you go into a pub, when you go into a brewery or a, a normal house.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:31:17

You have... That's rule number one is the respect, you know, how you, uh, behave and respectful you, you go.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:31:27

Because these pubs, the people, they put almost their whole life inside w- the work.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:31:34

So when they open up, you know, and then it's all clean and fresh, and there's so many stuff going behind the scenes, you know, whether they, you know, they have to prepare the orders and to, to...

Horst Friedrichs: 00:31:48

I learned as well, like it's not so easy, you know, to have all that good beer taste.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:31:52

You have to clean the, the pipes and do all these things, you know?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:31:56

It's a, it's, it's, it's a hell of a work, a pub, you know?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:02

McFleshman's: Yes.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:03

. Horst Friedrichs: I looked yesterday actually because I wanted to know where you guys are.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:08

So yeah, it's

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:11

McFleshman's: I did too before we

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:12

Montana, I saw this kind of places.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:14

I, you know, they're like really in the corner.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:17

I went to, once to C- Canada, Winnipeg, what was also fun.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:21

But yeah, America is quite big.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:24

And so also my... I have two daughters, and they-- one daughter wants to go to LA, the other one wants to go to New York.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:33

So I was thinking maybe road trip.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:37

McFleshman's: There you go.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:38

Yeah,

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:39

Maybe a beer, beer trip, a

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:40

McFleshman's: beer is as much the, the drink of the United States as it is for Germany or England, for sure.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:47

Mm-hmm.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:48

Yeah, no.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:32:49

I, I, I saw several things on TV you know, you, you have this, uh... And I'm a barbecue guy, so, you know, uh, all this pulled pork and, uh, you know, the, the, the, the barbecue culture.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:33:04

That, that's also something, and I think that will go incredibly well with, with good beer.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:33:11

McFleshman's: Absolutely, yes.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:33:14

All right- Although fair

Horst Friedrichs: 00:33:15

warning, we-- I've, I've met a lot of Europeans that completely misjudge the size of the United States.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:33:20

And they think they're gonna, like, drive to Chicago for the afternoon from New York, and it just doesn't work that way.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:33:27

There is No.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:33:28

train on which to jump on either.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:33:30

No.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:33:30

No,

Horst Friedrichs: 00:33:30

there are, but- Well- Yeah they're not good.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:33:33

Yeah, well, I will, I definitely know I will take my time because, uh, you know, my whole life I've been doing, uh, you know, talking about, uh, well, in kilometers, not, uh, not miles, maybe 20,000 kilometers.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:33:47

I did this kind of things, but y- y- you need to take the time.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:33:51

And, and I think one of my, uh, things on the bucket list is doing a, a, a road trip.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:33:59

But yeah, I need the money and the time to, to do it.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:34:03

But before I die, I want to do this, this trip.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:34:07

McFleshman's: You're also not at want for, uh, any number of pubs within arm's length, yet miles from where you're sitting right now.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:34:13

Th-there's so many pubs in the UK and in London,

Horst Friedrichs: 00:34:16

I know,

Horst Friedrichs: 00:34:17

McFleshman's: so don't, don't, uh-- It's not that bad that you can't make it here in, in the meantime.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:34:22

Yeah, it's about three, uh, f- like 4,000 pubs, yeah.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:34:27

You know, I don't, uh ... I, I also think I want to see also different things.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:34:34

I mean, so I'm quite open to ... I love the States.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:34:41

I, I, you know, I would connect it with a lot of other things because I also love the food there.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:34:47

I, uh, like also I never forget, we was actually doing a book on bookstores and we included uh, we had an amazing trip in, uh, we went to, uh, first to San Francis- uh, sorry, to New York we went first to photograph some bookstores, fantastic bookstores.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:35:07

Then, uh, we went to San Francisco, uh, to photograph some very beautiful bookstores.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:35:14

And yeah, w- one morning, a- actually, we found a parking space in New York with our rented car because it was the only, uh, holiday.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:35:25

I forgot the name of the holiday.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:35:26

But we had a parking space in front of the hotel.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:35:29

So we left early in the morning to go to Philadelphia to this, uh, barn bookshop.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:35:35

It's it's like a candy box you know, a bookstore in the middle of a beautiful landscape.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:35:44

You know, the American flag hangs outside.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:35:46

You go inside, there is a little stove.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:35:49

There's like everything like cozy, unbelievable.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:35:52

Beautiful pictures.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:35:54

And yeah, I mean, that was a bit of a road trip, and that kind of like told me again it's, it's- It's, you know, it's possible.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:07

It's, it's... And, you know, everybody was friendly wherever we went.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:11

We went to these diners.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:13

We had pancakes.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:14

It was really like in the movie.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:16

I li- I'm, I'm very romantic, you know?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:18

And to, to go back to the pubs here in England, we, we did, So the pubs here in London I did with my bicycle, but the pubs in England we did yeah, with a car.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:30

So we, we went, you know, sort of like a road trip.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:34

So when we went to Manchester, we had you know, one or two pubs.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:38

Uh, you know, one pub a day.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:42

You can never do two pubs in a day.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:44

That is, uh, very difficult.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:46

McFleshman's: When you commit to the Irish book, my wife and I will meet you there.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:50

Absolutely.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:50

Deal.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:51

McFleshman's: there's so much to see there.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:54

All right.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:55

Well, uh, where can people find you online?

Horst Friedrichs: 00:36:58

Yeah, so, yeah, I'm on Instagram.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:37:01

Yeah, my, my name is not so easy, Horst Fredericks.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:37:05

That's quite German.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:37:07

But yeah, you'll find me easily.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:37:08

So if you use the word Horst, H-O-R-S-T, and you put either pubs or rockers, you will find me.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:37:18

McFleshman's: All right.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:37:19

And, uh, both of your books, I'm sure David will put the links in the show notes so

Horst Friedrichs: 00:37:23

people can go check it out on Amazon.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:37:26

Fantastic.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:37:27

McFleshman's: And that'll conclude this episode of Respecting the Beer.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:37:30

The producer of Respecting the Beer is David Kalsow.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:37:32

Without David, there wouldn't be a show.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:37:34

Join our Facebook group for updates and support the show over on Patreon.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:37:38

Patreon and club, Pub Club members, you can get exclusive-- As Patreon and Pub Club members, you can get access to exclusive content, including bonus show segments and special events hosted here at Mick's Fleshman's.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:37:49

The links to both of these are in the show notes.

Horst Friedrichs: 00:37:51

And until next time, please remember to respect the beer.