Episode 106
Jamil Zainasheff on Why Ordinary Beer Is Boring
Brewer and author Jamil Zainasheff returns to talk about moving from homebrewing to owning a brewery, collaboration with Mitch Steele and Fuller's, and evaluating some of his most famous quotes. Part 2 of 2.
Learn homebrewing with Mr. Malty! https://www.mrmalty.com/
PATREON SUPPORT
patreon.com/respectingthebeerpodcast
- Uncut episodes with bonus content
- Access to exclusive beers
- Access to 50-minute video tour of McFleshman's
FACEBOOK GROUP
https://www.facebook.com/groups/respectingthebeer
QUESTIONS?
Email us at respectingthebeer@gmail.com
--
CHAPTERS
00:00 Welcome to Respecting the Beer!
00:14 Jamil Zainasheff on Going Pro
04:26 Evil Three Returns
08:56 Fullers Collaboration Tales
18:16 Ordinary Beer Is Boring
21:32 Life Too Short For Bad Beer
23:22 Treat Every Guest Special
26:04 Invite To McFleshman's Brewery
28:28 Mount Rushmore Of Brewing
35:23 Where To Find Jamil
36:13 Best Homebrewing Books
40:40 Support us on Patreon!
--
CREDITS
Hosts:
Bobby Fleshman - https://www.mcfleshmans.com/
Allison Fleshman -https://www.instagram.com/mcfleshmans/
Joel Hermansen
Gary Ardnt - https://everything-everywhere.com/everything-everywhere-daily-podcast/
Music by Sarah Lynn Huss - https://www.facebook.com/kevin.huss.52/
Recorded & Produced by David Kalsow - https://davidkalsow.com/
Brought to you by McFleshman's Brewing Co
Transcript
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Respecting the Beer.
David Kalsow:I'm producer Dave.
David Kalsow:And we're back to our conversation with Jamil Zana Shef.
David Kalsow:Let's dive right in.
David Kalsow:Enjoy the episode.
David Kalsow:McFleshman's: You absolutely should open a brewery.
David Kalsow:What, and, and Bobby, I, I, I'm interested in your take on this too.
David Kalsow:What, what was the moment that both of you said, okay.
David Kalsow:I'm, I'm ready to move from accomplished home brewer to owning my own establishment?
Jamil Zainasheff:Well now,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Let Jamill answer
Jamil Zainasheff:yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:You, you say confidence, maybe stupidity is a better
Jamil Zainasheff:ignorance.
Jamil Zainasheff:Ignorance is, ignorance is a big portion of it.
Jamil Zainasheff:You gotta have the right amount of, you know, knowledge and confidence and then, you know, a good chunk of ignorance allows you to move forward on something, you know, maybe you shouldn't.
Jamil Zainasheff:The, I had, uh, been working in software for, I don't know, I. Up until, uh, 2009 I was working for Macromedia and then Adobe, and then, uh, left them in 2009.
Jamil Zainasheff:And then I wrote the yeast book with Chris White 2009, and it was near in the end.
Jamil Zainasheff:And my wife was like, you know, what are you gonna do for a job now?
Jamil Zainasheff:You know, you can't just write, you know, brewing books, you know, it's, it's not gonna be enough of a income.
Jamil Zainasheff:And here I was envisioning myself, uh, you know, just writing brewing books.
Jamil Zainasheff:And she's like, no, you're not gonna be sitting on the couch writing brewing books, you know, you know, get a job and I don't want to go back to software.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, Acquaintance of mine, he had a, a brewery building, but, just could not finish assembling his brewery and getting it going.
Jamil Zainasheff:And I said, I'll come in and do a lot of the last bits for you if we can share the brewery.
Jamil Zainasheff:And so that's how I got started.
Jamil Zainasheff:You know, I held my initial investment down quite low by doing that.
Jamil Zainasheff:I mean, I still had to buy fermenters and you know, a lot of other stuff, but I did not have to buy a brew plant.
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah, I just had to get the one that was there up and running.
Jamil Zainasheff:So, uh, you know, my wife pressured me into it.
Jamil Zainasheff:So I say it's my wife's fault, it's my wife's fault because she gave me a Mr. Beer kit.
Jamil Zainasheff:It's my wife's fault 'cause she pressured me in open a break.
Jamil Zainasheff:So it's all
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Avi, would you like to adopt that same answer?
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, I think that would be fair.
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:I think that's a good answer.
Jamil Zainasheff:You're gonna blame Alison for this.
Jamil Zainasheff:I'm gonna blame Alison.
Jamil Zainasheff:We really do hear that.
Jamil Zainasheff:No, to the audience, Alison is not here.
Jamil Zainasheff:That that answer is usually opposite of that.
Jamil Zainasheff:You do it in spite of not because of that you, your significant other.
Jamil Zainasheff:That's a special person.
Jamil Zainasheff:I poured beer next to her at a beer fest under the bridge there in Dave at Davis, uh,
Jamil Zainasheff:Oh wow.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: And, uh, she also wrote, hand, wrote me a letter.
Jamil Zainasheff:'cause I, I think I may have emailed for a sticker when you open heretic.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, she hand wrote me a letter and put a few stickers in an envelope.
Jamil Zainasheff:I will never forget it.
Jamil Zainasheff:I still have it.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, I thought, man, that's a personal touch.
Jamil Zainasheff:That was, that was something.
Jamil Zainasheff:Well, yeah, we always believed in, you know, if anybody ever asked for stickers and stuff like that, we just sent 'em to 'em.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Mm-hmm.
Jamil Zainasheff:you know, it depends.
Jamil Zainasheff:You get a lot of ones from, you know, like Poland or Russia or stuff that seemed kind of sketchy, but
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: right, right.
Jamil Zainasheff:all the ones, you know, with the stamps and everything, it's like, yep, you got it.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: I've got a million, I got a million bullets on my sheet and I, I don't know much time we got, but, uh, I, I just wanna say that you're one of the most pragmatic brewers out there, and you, and you call bullshit everywhere.
Jamil Zainasheff:You, you see it.
Jamil Zainasheff:I al I always appreciated that, you know, you going through Bruce Strong and, and you giving answers thoughtfully and, and, uh, just barreling right through any dogma that existed out there.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, that's just a comment.
Jamil Zainasheff:I just wanted to compliment you on that.
Jamil Zainasheff:And then I wanted to bring up something, uh.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, so Mitch Steele was on our show a few months ago,
Jamil Zainasheff:I.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: and I just heard, I just heard that Mitch is, uh, I guess is he, will we call him retired or will we call him?
Jamil Zainasheff:What are we gonna call him now?
Jamil Zainasheff:I know that he's, uh, he's looking for some hobbies these days, however big they become.
Jamil Zainasheff:I, I don't know that he is retired.
Jamil Zainasheff:I think he's just transitioning to, you know, another part of the industry that he loves so much and, you know,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:Is that the teaching guitar to Joel and Bobby Industry?
Jamil Zainasheff:Is that, is that what Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:Guitar teaching?
Jamil Zainasheff:That's right.
Jamil Zainasheff:To all beer enthusiast.
Jamil Zainasheff:yeah, do that.
Jamil Zainasheff:Mitch, Mitch is such a wonderful person.
Jamil Zainasheff:I, I
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: He is,
Jamil Zainasheff:is, I've always said he's nicer than Jesus, and, uh,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: that's, that's, I only have him to compare to, so I only have one of the two.
Jamil Zainasheff:he is a wonderful guy.
Jamil Zainasheff:Just absolutely wonderful.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: I bring it up because of Evil three, and I brought it up, uh, with Mitch too.
Jamil Zainasheff:I said, is that gonna happen someday?
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, again, and, and I don't know, I just keep floating this idea because I feel like it should happen again in honor of Tasty McDowell or just, uh, because, you know, you guys are legends and I, I kind of wanna open our doors to that possible collaboration at some point, or if I can connect with anyone that, that would be interested.
Jamil Zainasheff:But I think I speak from the, the industry, uh, the heart of the industry and, and, and recognizing what you guys have done.
Jamil Zainasheff:And that beer was such a cool one.
Jamil Zainasheff:The union of you guys was, was kind of a once a traveling wilburys moment, if you will, right?
Jamil Zainasheff:You guys together.
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:We, we brewed it and yeah, unfortunately I had to sell the, the brewery 'cause my, my health was just not allowing it.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: And you gave us a tour by the way.
Jamil Zainasheff:Thank you.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, my wife and I dropped in on you one day and you were buried in your laptop 2013 fighting with all what the things that brewers fight with.
Jamil Zainasheff:But yeah, you won't remember that 'cause you probably did that every day of the week,
Jamil Zainasheff:Oh.
Jamil Zainasheff:If, if you asked me, yeah, it's, it's a weird thing is people go, oh, you know, I wrote you once and, and you, you answered me back, you know, really detailed and helped me with a brewing question, but you know, name is, and I'm like, well, what was your question?
Jamil Zainasheff:And they're like, well, I asked about that.
Jamil Zainasheff:I'm like, oh yeah, and I told you this, that, and the other thing.
Jamil Zainasheff:It's like, I can't remember, uh, people very well, but I remember brewing questions in the answers I gave.
Jamil Zainasheff:So, which, which is really quite odd.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: I, I was probably asking something about the exp explos explosion proofing of your mill at some
Jamil Zainasheff:Oh, yeah, I probably went into a, a, an hour's diatribe about, you know, the, the, the strip curtains and the, you know, the seeing a, a light bulb, you know, 25 wi light bulb, you know, at a certain distance.
Jamil Zainasheff:And yeah, you learn, you,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: he's this guy.
Jamil Zainasheff:Oh, yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:you learn so many things, you know, doing a brewery.
Jamil Zainasheff:But I wanna say about evil three.
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah, Mitch and I, uh, and Andrew uh, went out to England and brewed evil three there.
Jamil Zainasheff:Well, we re brewed it virtually uh, via like, zoom or whatever with a, a brewery in Worthing called Hand Brewing in England.
Jamil Zainasheff:And then, uh, we went over there for the release party.
Jamil Zainasheff:All of us.
Jamil Zainasheff:It was a, it was a blast.
Jamil Zainasheff:And we're going to brew it again in it's not evil three, but we're gonna, uh, Mitch and Lee McDowell, uh, tasty son, and myself and Andrew, we're all getting together to brew a batch of triple IPA, uh, here in January.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, have some fun with it.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: That's awesome.
Jamil Zainasheff:That's awesome.
Jamil Zainasheff:So Bobby and I should be out there early March then to, to give it a taste.
Jamil Zainasheff:Is that the timeline?
Jamil Zainasheff:Right?
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, I always released it on, uh, the day before Super Bowl, the Saturday before Super Bowl, because.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: we, we, we will be out there.
Jamil Zainasheff:Sounds good.
Jamil Zainasheff:I don't know when, uh, I don't know when they're gonna have the beer ready to go, but I can let you know.
Jamil Zainasheff:It's probably gonna be, we're brewing January 7th, I want to say.
Jamil Zainasheff:So probably it'll be right about that time, uh, right in time for Super Bowl.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: So speaking of collaborations and doing that overseas, do you want to talk a little bit about what you've done with Fullers?
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:Do you, did you know John Keeling from Fullers?
Jamil Zainasheff:I'm sure you do.
Jamil Zainasheff:'cause you, you went over there, I think when he was still there
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:I have another wonderful person in the brewing industry.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:He did a, a podcast with me in 2019 or 2020 and, uh, we, we never have met.
Jamil Zainasheff:He and I, but we, we know, we love ca scale.
Jamil Zainasheff:We knew we, we fell in love over convers.
Jamil Zainasheff:We fell in love with, uh, ca independently and then, uh, met each other on a podcast and decided we wanted to collaborate at some point, you know, all these years later, we finally did this year, I, I did a party guy on our system here, based on some of his notes, and, uh, came out great.
Jamil Zainasheff:People love it.
Jamil Zainasheff:We have a ESB and a and a bidder out of that based on London Pride and ESB, uh, I'm sorry, the Chisik Bitter and the ESB.
Jamil Zainasheff:He, uh, I'm, I was drinking that when we started this interview because I, I know that you're also a big fan of these, of the, the pub and, and the hand pumps and so forth and so
Jamil Zainasheff:That's the only thing I brew at home Now.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: I love it.
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:And I know that you had, you were endorsing a book recently on the subject of, of pubs in the uk, or, or maybe you're a co-author of it or,
Jamil Zainasheff:well, that was the camera guide to, uh, to, to Good, good Pubs, uh, is a valuable resource.
Jamil Zainasheff:But I did a a book called The Modern Home Brewer with a buddy of mine Andy over in, uh, the uk.
Jamil Zainasheff:He, uh, is one of the owners of oh,
Jamil Zainasheff:why, why am I drawing a
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: That title is ringing a bell for me.
Jamil Zainasheff:Modern Homer.
Jamil Zainasheff:We just came out with it.
Jamil Zainasheff:Just, just one a, some sort of award for that as well.
Jamil Zainasheff:And Camera was a publisher of that.
Jamil Zainasheff:Just did, I did it right before.
Jamil Zainasheff:I got sick.
Jamil Zainasheff:I got sick last year, last November, nearly died.
Jamil Zainasheff:And it's, it took me about eight months to even be able to email since then.
Jamil Zainasheff:But uh, yeah, John Keeling another wonderful person.
Jamil Zainasheff:And he's another one of those folks that will tell you absolutely everything he knows, doesn't hold anything back, recipes, anything.
Jamil Zainasheff:He will, he will share all the information he has because he.
Jamil Zainasheff:He understands it's, you know, it's, you can give somebody all the information in the world, but unless they have the ability to implement it, it's still not gonna be, you know, and, and it's not, you know, other people brewing great beer is not a threat to you or your ability to make great beer.
Jamil Zainasheff:Matter of fact, it's the opposite.
Jamil Zainasheff:Helps you make great beer because there's better ingredients available, more information available.
Jamil Zainasheff:So I've never been shy about sharing information.
Jamil Zainasheff:You know, the col collabs at Fuller's, uh, I was there, uh, in doing a tour of Fullers.
Jamil Zainasheff:I had never done a tour of Fullers.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, I was in England with a buddy of mine, uh, Travis Cobel and.
Jamil Zainasheff:He's like, you know, well, we should do the Fuller tour.
Jamil Zainasheff:He had already done it before.
Jamil Zainasheff:And I'm like, yeah, I've never done it for some reason, I'd love to do the, the tour.
Jamil Zainasheff:So we signed up for the regular old tour, everybody signs up for, and we were going through and they, somebody figured out that, I guess I had, you know, some notoriety in the brewing world.
Jamil Zainasheff:And one of their brewers there, uh, Henry Kirk saw me and, and said, yeah, you know, I've got your yeast book.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, you know, he's like, let me give you a more private tour.
Jamil Zainasheff:And he took us around, you know, in all the little nooks and crannies that you don't go to on the normal tour, we're crawling through tunnels and everything I, you know, like I do with a lot of people that I, I get along with, I say, Hey, if you're ever out in California, let me know.
Jamil Zainasheff:You know, I can take you around.
Jamil Zainasheff:You can stay at my place.
Jamil Zainasheff:And he goes, okay, I'll be there Tuesday.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, and I thought he was joking.
Jamil Zainasheff:He goes, no, I'm literally going to be there on Tuesday.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, you know, I'm going to this thing at Sierra Nevada.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, I could stop by and see you.
Jamil Zainasheff:And so he came, he stayed at my place and we, I took him around to a bunch of different things with, uh, some other people from Sweden that just coincidentally happened to be there.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, Henry and I hit it off big time.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, so we started talking about doing this, this beer at, at Fullers.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, John, uh, Keeling wanted to do a gza and, you know.
Jamil Zainasheff:Henry's like Gza.
Jamil Zainasheff:I'm like, yeah, GZA.
Jamil Zainasheff:Sure.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, I think the board for Fullers kind of lost their mind when they heard that, you know, we were gonna be souring a beer at Fullers.
Jamil Zainasheff:And uh, so I, I bought my plane tickets like immediately and I was like, I had my hotel booked, everything.
Jamil Zainasheff:I'm like, I am ready for this.
Jamil Zainasheff:And so the board's like, no, we're not gonna do this.
Jamil Zainasheff:Or, you know, some, some people were like, we're not gonna do this.
Jamil Zainasheff:uh, I guess John and Henry was like, yeah, he already bought his tickets.
Jamil Zainasheff:You know, what, are we gonna turn him away?
Jamil Zainasheff:We told him we would do it.
Jamil Zainasheff:So I went out there and brewed, uh, like 250 Heta, liters of Gza.
Jamil Zainasheff:We soured it in there, kettles there.
Jamil Zainasheff:We had to come up with whole new ways of doing things there 'cause it.
Jamil Zainasheff:You know, the system was not ever meant to do something like that.
Jamil Zainasheff:You know, there's a lot of automation and how things flow and the computer tracks that.
Jamil Zainasheff:So,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: I think you talked about on, on Bruce Strong, maybe one of the episodes.
Jamil Zainasheff:it was, it was a blast.
Jamil Zainasheff:It only thing was, I knew they wouldn't add enough fruit.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:It was, uh, black Kern or Blackberry, uh, GZA.
Jamil Zainasheff:And I'm just like, you've gotta add a lot of fruit.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, when it got to market, it was just really subtle.
Jamil Zainasheff:I'm like, ah.
Jamil Zainasheff:But, uh, and we did that.
Jamil Zainasheff:And it was a great experience.
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah,
Jamil Zainasheff:I don't know how much time you have for all my stupid stories, but one of my favorite ones is, uh, partway through this is like the second day of this because we had to sour it overnight.
Jamil Zainasheff:So I'm there multiple days and Henry's having me do stuff like clean, you know, things and, you know,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Was this a photo op kind of a collaboration?
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:No, it wasn't that, which I hate those.
Jamil Zainasheff:I like the ones where you're actually involved, but he's like, Hey, uh, all the brewers need to go to this, you know, collaboration meeting.
Jamil Zainasheff:We're doing like a six pack of collaborations and, you know, each brewer is taking, you know, one of the beers, so we're all have to go to this meeting.
Jamil Zainasheff:He's like, can, can you watch the brewery?
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, I'm like, uh, you know,
Jamil Zainasheff:uh, just Sure.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, and.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: We're talking about Fuller's Brewing
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:It wasn't, it wasn't even a commercial brewer at this point, I think.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, he goes, you know what you're doing?
Jamil Zainasheff:And he goes, you know, uh, you know, kettle Two needs cleaning.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, then, you know, just keep an eye on everything else.
Jamil Zainasheff:And so I went and cleaned this 250 he leader, uh, uh, kettle, which, you know, there's, there's tricks to it and it's got all these special baffles in the bottom.
Jamil Zainasheff:But I did that.
Jamil Zainasheff:And then I was sitting in the brewer's office just looking at the screens and trying to figure out what was going on.
Jamil Zainasheff:And somebody came in and they were just like 44.
Jamil Zainasheff:I'm like, okay.
Jamil Zainasheff:So I just wrote down 44 on a scrap of paper.
Jamil Zainasheff:I figured I'd tell Henry when he got back.
Jamil Zainasheff:And then I assumed it was the, this, the gravity for pride.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, uh, which it was.
Jamil Zainasheff:And while I'm there, this tour comes through and there's a whole bunch of people.
Jamil Zainasheff:And like, I wave, I'm in the Brewer's booth wearing a Fuller's hi-Vis, and I'm like waving all these people are taking pictures.
Jamil Zainasheff:I'm like, all right.
Jamil Zainasheff:So somewhere out there and somebody's Instagram feed is me going like, oh, took a tour of Fullers and here's a picture of the brewer, and, and it's me.
Jamil Zainasheff:So I always thought that was hilarious.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Jamil Zainasheff:Exactly.
Jamil Zainasheff:Told Henry when he came back, he was just cracking up.
Jamil Zainasheff:He loved it.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Jamil, can I ask you to comment to a couple of your more famous quotes?
Jamil Zainasheff:Okay.
Jamil Zainasheff:I
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: have famous quotes by the way.
Jamil Zainasheff:I I, there's, there's a few
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Okay.
Jamil Zainasheff:One of your ones that I really identify with is ordinary beer is boring.
Jamil Zainasheff:Don't drink it.
Jamil Zainasheff:What are your thoughts on that quote
Jamil Zainasheff:Hmm.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: and what does it mean
Jamil Zainasheff:Well,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: why does it apply to Gary?
Jamil Zainasheff:if, if there's, you know, there's, okay, so, uh,
Jamil Zainasheff:there's, let's say you're a really avid reader.
Jamil Zainasheff:There are 50 50 there.
Jamil Zainasheff:Back when I, I learned this fact, which quite a while ago, there was 50,000 books published every year on average and
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: wife might read all of them.
Jamil Zainasheff:Right.
Jamil Zainasheff:The thing is, no matter how fast you read.
Jamil Zainasheff:You, you can't read 50,000 books in a lifetime.
Jamil Zainasheff:And so all these new books are being created if you, if you end up wasting time on reading something that really isn't good or something you don't vastly enjoy.
Jamil Zainasheff:I tell my wife this, I'm said, you know, she's like, oh, I gotta finish this.
Jamil Zainasheff:It's not very good, but I gotta finish it.
Jamil Zainasheff:I'm like, just drop it and start something else that you do enjoy.
Jamil Zainasheff:Because there's, you know, it's, it's like trying to watch everything on Netflix, right?
Jamil Zainasheff:You, you can't catch up because they come out with new stuff all the time.
Jamil Zainasheff:There's just not enough hours in your lifetime to do it.
Jamil Zainasheff:Same thing on beers.
Jamil Zainasheff:There's so many beers that are produced that if the beer you're drinking is not great, eh, set it aside, get something else.
Jamil Zainasheff:I got friends that are just like, well, I ordered it.
Jamil Zainasheff:You know, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna drink it, you know?
Jamil Zainasheff:I'm like, but you don't like it?
Jamil Zainasheff:No, it's not very good.
Jamil Zainasheff:I'm like, well, then pour it out and get something else.
Jamil Zainasheff:I always had the, the rule at my place that if somebody didn't like something, no questions asked, dump it, get 'em something else, no charge.
Jamil Zainasheff:But you know, you, you can't waste time drinking beer.
Jamil Zainasheff:That doesn't give you some sort of thrill, you know, other than just the alcohol aspect of it.
Jamil Zainasheff:Why, you know, why are you drinking the beer?
Jamil Zainasheff:If it doesn't give you some sort of, wow, that's a great, you know, hop character.
Jamil Zainasheff:Oh wow, look, you know, look how beautiful it is.
Jamil Zainasheff:You know, look at the whole, the, the foam stand, look at the clarity, look at the color, look at, you know, feel that mouth feel in this, you know, something special about the beard that really you know, makes it a, a special experience.
Jamil Zainasheff:'cause just ordinary, boring stuff, you know, there's not enough time in life to, to, to waste on things like that.
Jamil Zainasheff:What, what, what did the quote mean to you?
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Well, I, I, I would interpret it exactly the way you did.
Jamil Zainasheff:My, my good friend Christophe and I, we have a rule when we're drinking beer life's too short for a bad beer.
Jamil Zainasheff:And it's basically kind of verbatim to what you described.
Jamil Zainasheff:We'll periodically bring over a, a, a new beer, and if it's no good, uh, we, we just dump it.
Jamil Zainasheff:Like there's, there's no,
Jamil Zainasheff:it's okay.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: there's no ti, there's no time for it.
Jamil Zainasheff:I, we know what we like.
Jamil Zainasheff:Gary refers to me as parochial as as a result, but there there's no time for frittering about and, and wasting time.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, and any, any good brewer would like to know you do that too.
Jamil Zainasheff:We don't want you to drink.
Jamil Zainasheff:Oh, yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:Stuff you don't want, and I'm not gonna list some of the breweries that I've just dumped, but I it's a, it's a, I think that's true in like anything in life.
Jamil Zainasheff:It is.
Jamil Zainasheff:I've walked out of movies that were bad.
Jamil Zainasheff:It's like, I'm not gonna waste another hour of my life with this.
Jamil Zainasheff:Right.
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:So, no, I, I, to me that quote resonated because ever since, and we just were able to speak to him, uh, two weeks ago.
Jamil Zainasheff:But, uh, when we talked to Ken Grossman at, at Sierra Nevada, I mean, when, when I had my first Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, I knew that I would never be able to drink.
Jamil Zainasheff:A domestic beer with, with any level of sincerity at that point, moving forward, I was like, okay, well this is it.
Jamil Zainasheff:You know, I, I, the, the, the bar has been set.
Jamil Zainasheff:The bar has been raised.
Jamil Zainasheff:This is the new standard.
Jamil Zainasheff:This is the new expectation, and I can't go back.
Jamil Zainasheff:So to me, your quote kind of resonated me with me about that.
Jamil Zainasheff:What was the second quote?
Jamil Zainasheff:The second quote was in relationship to how you wanted patrons at heretic to be treated.
Jamil Zainasheff:And I quote, treat everyone like they're the most important person in the tap room.
Jamil Zainasheff:And I'm, I'm interested in your thoughts on that because that is also my perspective when I'm in the tap room at McManns that I, I do my best and, you know, everybody has a bad day from, from time to time, but I do my best to make everybody feel like they're, they're really important.
Jamil Zainasheff:I think part of that philosophy comes from my teaching experience.
Jamil Zainasheff:I've been a teacher now for 28 years, and I, my goal is, is to make every day an important one.
Jamil Zainasheff:I only get 180 shots to make a difference.
Jamil Zainasheff:So when somebody comes into the tap room, I really want them to feel special.
Jamil Zainasheff:So I, I wanted to get your take on that quote as well.
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:I, I, I just think, you know, it's good business to, you know, treat people that way.
Jamil Zainasheff:If, if you want to have a successful business, but, you know, if you're gonna take somebody's money, you know, it's the, the least thing you can do is, you know, treat 'em like they're, you know, that they're important.
Jamil Zainasheff:I dunno, I and, you know, there's just, there's a joy you get from it too.
Jamil Zainasheff:I bet you when, you know, when you're dealing with a customer and you, you take the time to, you know, figure out what they'll enjoy or to talk to 'em about what they enjoy or what they don't enjoy and you know, their options and help walk 'em through it.
Jamil Zainasheff:And then they're just like, wow, this is fantastic.
Jamil Zainasheff:Thank you.
Jamil Zainasheff:You know, it's.
Jamil Zainasheff:There's, there's something about that.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: A rush to it.
Jamil Zainasheff:There really is
Jamil Zainasheff:it's like, you know, you, you, it's just making somebody's day, you know?
Jamil Zainasheff:If you can make somebody's day, it's, it's just it.
Jamil Zainasheff:That's a special thing.
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:So,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: if you can't be happy at a brewery, I mean, we, we, we might have a bigger issue.
Jamil Zainasheff:yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: You know, I mean, at McManns we're surrounded by grape beers.
Jamil Zainasheff:If I can't bring a smile to people here, I, I probably have an issue.
Jamil Zainasheff:Well, and that's, you know, that's the way you bring business, you know, repeat business as well.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, you know, you make a place that people enjoy.
Jamil Zainasheff:They, they feel like they're treated well and that you know, uh, it's worth their time to come down and you know, it kind of makes their day.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: And before I ask him our final question, I wanna make sure that you've gotten a chance to empty your list of questions.
Jamil Zainasheff:Oh, I was just gonna say, if you ever get out and you, and you start touring again to all the home brew clubs and breweries and so on and so on, uh, stop by here.
Jamil Zainasheff:We have.
Jamil Zainasheff:An open fermentor.
Jamil Zainasheff:We do, uh, ca Gale, we do beer engines.
Jamil Zainasheff:We also, on the other side of that, we do the tions on a Czech brewing system.
Jamil Zainasheff:We have a, a 12 year now, uh, sour program.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, our Flanders is based partially on Jamal's recipe, but I mean, just by nature of the beast, right?
Jamil Zainasheff:You, you, uh, inevitably had an impact on all these brewers, including myself.
Jamil Zainasheff:But, uh, we're traditionally focused and I think you'd appreciate what we built here.
Jamil Zainasheff:I, you, you gotta come see what we do.
Jamil Zainasheff:If you make it up here and if you make it to England, I'd like to get a pint with you there someday too.
Jamil Zainasheff:See, see one of those great pubs that you, you could probably recommend.
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah, I, I'd, I'd love to come out and see you guys.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, hard to say when I'll be traveling again, but if, if, if I can, I certainly will.
Jamil Zainasheff:You know, I've been talking about,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: a day of the week, I would come on a Wednesday.
Jamil Zainasheff:yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: You wanna embellish that or, well, I, I mean, I just know somebody behind the bar on Wednesday who's, who would really love to have you here.
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:I will just note that if you look at a map of the United States, the most bars per capita, Wisconsin crushes everyone else.
Jamil Zainasheff:And then if you look at a map of the state of Wisconsin, of what county has the most bars per capita, we are at ground zero in the United States for drinking.
Jamil Zainasheff:They've, they've lean into this statistic.
Jamil Zainasheff:I mean, I, I, I don't know if it's something to be worried about or to be proud of, but pride, I, it, it is what it is.
Jamil Zainasheff:I could hit a nine iron and I, I hit a pretty long nine iron, probably one 60, I could hit a nine iron to 15 bars.
Jamil Zainasheff:And I, I, I, I was at a, I watched a Czech brewer give a talk, and he was bragging about how much they drink in the Czech Republic.
Jamil Zainasheff:And I stood up to ask a question, but before that, I challenged his statistic about how many, how they drink more than anyone in the country, in the world.
Jamil Zainasheff:And I said, if Wisconsin were a country, they would be number two.
Jamil Zainasheff:And it drew a laugh and there was a joke or question, but it didn't matter.
Jamil Zainasheff:That was what the attention was drawn to.
Jamil Zainasheff:All right.
Jamil Zainasheff:Joel, ready for your, your big question now.
Jamil Zainasheff:Okay.
Jamil Zainasheff:This is always our final question.
Jamil Zainasheff:This has been the final question for John Keeling.
Jamil Zainasheff:This has been the final question for Ken Grossman, and I wanna make sure you're ready.
Jamil Zainasheff:Are you ready?
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, sure.
Jamil Zainasheff:Or.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: All right.
Jamil Zainasheff:So the Mount Rushmore of Brewing per Jamil is who
Jamil Zainasheff:Oh,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: now?
Jamil Zainasheff:Mount Rushmore only has four people.
Jamil Zainasheff:I, I may remind you of.
Jamil Zainasheff:right.
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah, I don't know.
Jamil Zainasheff:That is
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: He's got a lot of friends in the industry.
Jamil Zainasheff:He does.
Jamil Zainasheff:This is not fair.
Jamil Zainasheff:This isn't fair.
Jamil Zainasheff:right.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Mitch Steel, Mitch Steele this question too.
Jamil Zainasheff:It's true.
Jamil Zainasheff:We're gonna ask Vinny in a couple weeks.
Jamil Zainasheff:Yep.
Jamil Zainasheff:yeah, Vinny would be a good one.
Jamil Zainasheff:Mitch would be a good one.
Jamil Zainasheff:Ken Grossman would be a good one.
Jamil Zainasheff:The ones.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uc, Davis, Michael Lewis, Charlie Bamforth,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Oh man.
Jamil Zainasheff:You're hitting all the high notes right here.
Jamil Zainasheff:you know, England, John Keeling Michael Jackson, uh, Charlie Papa.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: See, that's always mine.
Jamil Zainasheff:He is.
Jamil Zainasheff:He is a hundred percent on mine and.
Jamil Zainasheff:When I've asked people about this, like even Ken Grossman's, like, oh yeah, okay, well, well he, he said that if he, if he were more commercially Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:And influenced yeah, then he would be on there.
Jamil Zainasheff:But in terms of, and, and that's why Jamil to me, you and Charlie are kind of in this universe of people that have just inspired, you know, home brewers and people to pick up their mash paddle and, and, and to take on the challenge of doing it.
Jamil Zainasheff:Charlie, with his role in the home brewers associate to me, I, I, he's on mine in, in American Brewing.
Jamil Zainasheff:He's on mine.
Jamil Zainasheff:But that, this isn't my list, it's yours, so you gotta come up with four.
Jamil Zainasheff:You gave me like 12
Jamil Zainasheff:I,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: far.
Jamil Zainasheff:I, so I've, I've, I've come up with at least four.
Jamil Zainasheff:There you go.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, lemme, lemme tell you a story about Charlie Papazian.
Jamil Zainasheff:Back when I was really just starting out, I went to my very first Home Brewers conference, and that was in, I think it was in Houston, or it was somewhere in Texas and it, the conference was 150 people or so.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, Charlie used to go around and sit in the, you know, the, the various talks and stuff like that.
Jamil Zainasheff:And I remember, you know, chatting with him once and telling him about, you know.
Jamil Zainasheff:How much I enjoyed his writing and, you know, all the stuff he did to get the Home Brew Association going.
Jamil Zainasheff:And he was just super nice and said, you know, such nice things to me and was so encouraging.
Jamil Zainasheff:It stuck with me always.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, you know, every time I saw him he was just, just the most generous with his time.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, I remember, uh, when I met I, I'd seen Michael Jackson, you know, give talks and stuff, but we were at a conference in San Diego, I'm not sure if it was commercial or I think it was the Home Brew.
Jamil Zainasheff:And I saw Charlie and he's like, sit down with, with, uh.
Jamil Zainasheff:Michael Jackson and, you know, chat with him for a while.
Jamil Zainasheff:And you know, Michael Jackson had, you know, Parkinson's and, uh, you know, it was, it was a real struggle for him there at the end.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, and a lot of times, you know, so I dunno, I sat with him and we chatted about journalism, not veer journalism.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, that was, that was just a really wonderful experience.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, and again, Charlie was, you know, part of that.
Jamil Zainasheff:He's like, here you two get together and chat.
Jamil Zainasheff:And that's one of the reasons I I'd put Charlie on that, on that.
Jamil Zainasheff:Mount Rushmore.
Jamil Zainasheff:Mount Rushmore just needs to be
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Andy's Armenian, Gary, just like me.
Jamil Zainasheff:Armenians
Jamil Zainasheff:there's.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Cher Friendly, right?
Jamil Zainasheff:Me, Cher Kardashian.
Jamil Zainasheff:There's just, uh, there's just too many great people in brewing.
Jamil Zainasheff:It's, the reason I love brewing is,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: So you've got one so far.
Jamil Zainasheff:You've got Charlie
Jamil Zainasheff:just, it's just,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: he.
Jamil Zainasheff:so many wonderful people that, uh, are so kind and generous, and they, you know, it's, it's one of those, those things where, you know, beer by yourself is, can be really good, but it can only truly be great when it's shared with other people.
Jamil Zainasheff:And you experience it together, I think.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: John Keeling said that that's the only way to have beer.
Jamil Zainasheff:He's all about community.
Jamil Zainasheff:John's, John's a great guy too.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: I only drink beer in the presence of Joel.
Jamil Zainasheff:Wow.
Jamil Zainasheff:That, that, that is quite an honor.
Jamil Zainasheff:I think.
Jamil Zainasheff:I think Jam's going to, gonna wiggle out of he He is
Jamil Zainasheff:I,
Jamil Zainasheff:how many.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: right, but there's only all four.
Jamil Zainasheff:There's only room for four.
Jamil Zainasheff:I will point out that just several weeks ago, Ken Grossman put himself on the Mount Rushmore and I insisted.
Jamil Zainasheff:You insisted.
Jamil Zainasheff:Like he has to be on there.
Jamil Zainasheff:There's two.
Jamil Zainasheff:We have two.
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah, you know, I would,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Ken Grossman is a giant, a giant.
Jamil Zainasheff:I think, I think people like, uh, Greg Cook, Steve Wagner, and, you know, they changed the, the beer scene with Stone Brewing.
Jamil Zainasheff:I think that that
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Oh
Jamil Zainasheff:a significant, significant impact.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Is Greg Cook off the grid now?
Jamil Zainasheff:Is he, uh, touring, uh, in a band or what's going on?
Jamil Zainasheff:I haven't talked to him in a while, so I don't know.
Jamil Zainasheff:But,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: I just wanna know where his hair is these days.
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:And I, I, uh, he had been wearing his hair short and I hadn't seen him in, in quite some time.
Jamil Zainasheff:And then we were at the airport in Denver or something, and, uh, somebody came up and started talking to me.
Jamil Zainasheff:Really long hair all around.
Jamil Zainasheff:Entire, entire head was just like, you know, covered, completely covered.
Jamil Zainasheff:And I think the Tasty was there.
Jamil Zainasheff:And he, he realized I didn't recognize Greg Cook.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, uh, he, he goes, yeah, Greg.
Jamil Zainasheff:I said, I'm like, oh, he, he's like, afterwards he was like, I could tell you didn't know who you were talking to.
Jamil Zainasheff:Thanks.
Jamil Zainasheff:I need a bagman that'll stand next to me and tell me who I'm talking to
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: All right.
Jamil Zainasheff:Before we leave, why don't you tell everyone where they can find you online?
Jamil Zainasheff:Oh you can just email me at j zish@gmail.com.
Jamil Zainasheff:It's my personal email address, letter J, and you gotta be able to spell Zanish.
Jamil Zainasheff:She, that, that keeps a lot of people from contacting me.
Jamil Zainasheff:Or I think, I think like, you know, on the, on the social things, it's like either my name or it'll be Mr. Malty.
Jamil Zainasheff:And, you know, the Brew Network, uh, there's still shows.
Jamil Zainasheff:I mean, I got sick and couldn't do shows for quite a while, so my, my buddy, uh, Travis took over and, and handled it for a while there.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, I don't know what else.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Uh, and if people are looking to get into home brewing, what book should of yours should they look for?
Jamil Zainasheff:How to Brew by Joan Palmer,
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah, I always recommend How to Brew by John Palmer.
Jamil Zainasheff:I still think there's a great value to the, the joy of home brewing by Papazian.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Mm-hmm.
Jamil Zainasheff:And for a lot of people I think I might recommend they read that one first, you know, because it kind of talks about the experience of brewing and gets you into it without worrying too much, a
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: It is.
Jamil Zainasheff:So DIY too.
Jamil Zainasheff:The yellow pages and the black and white images on those old copies I.
Jamil Zainasheff:And then John's book is, is fantastic, uh, how to Brew.
Jamil Zainasheff:It's got, you know, a lot of information in it.
Jamil Zainasheff:I think it's just, it's, you know, it's very information dense.
Jamil Zainasheff:So I don't want people to be, you know, frightened of, of brewing and think it's too complex, but you know, when you have questions, that's a great book.
Jamil Zainasheff:Another one of my favorites early on was designing great beers, uh, Ray Daniels and, uh, the George Fix books.
Jamil Zainasheff:Those are fantastic.
Jamil Zainasheff:That, that taught me a lot.
Jamil Zainasheff:George Fix.
Jamil Zainasheff:Oh man, I would, I'd put George fix up on the Mount Rushmore,
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: There you go.
Jamil Zainasheff:We're up to 15 now.
Jamil Zainasheff:my
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: 18 names on there.
Jamil Zainasheff:and then
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: about IPA Brewing Techniques by your good old friend, Mitch Steele?
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah, yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, Scott Janis did a really interesting job with the IPAs and modern IPAs information.
Jamil Zainasheff:A lot of great books.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, the Brewing Classic Styles is, is really, uh.
Jamil Zainasheff:I think a great source of recipes because it's, you know, all by essentially one person.
Jamil Zainasheff:They're all proven in competition.
Jamil Zainasheff:When there was multiple recipes, I always went with the one that won the most awards, whether or not I thought that was the greatest, you know, style example.
Jamil Zainasheff:I, it was, I thought, you know, I wanted to give people the, the good stuff that, you know, and that they could trust.
Jamil Zainasheff:So it was consistent.
Jamil Zainasheff:If you need to make a change to one recipe, then you'd probably make 'em to all, and, you know, and then, uh, the yeast book.
Jamil Zainasheff:I think there's a lot of great information in that.
Jamil Zainasheff:I'm really proud all the work I did in that.
Jamil Zainasheff:But it it's just a lot of people find it a little, a little.
Jamil Zainasheff:They, they consume it in bits, you know, there's a lot of good information there.
Jamil Zainasheff:I don't, I don't know, you know, a lot of people that just read it cover to cover and not
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: I never did that.
Jamil Zainasheff:Except I did,
Jamil Zainasheff:Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: the, the water book was hard.
Jamil Zainasheff:I couldn't do the water
Jamil Zainasheff:Water Book is very dry.
Jamil Zainasheff:Yes.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: No fun.
Jamil Zainasheff:Which is ironic.
Jamil Zainasheff:No irony there.
Jamil Zainasheff:And then the, the, the Modern Home Brewer book that I just completed with Andy of Elusive Brewing
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Okay.
Jamil Zainasheff:the, uh, that's got a lot of, you know, modern, uh, information in it.
Jamil Zainasheff:It's kind of, uh, and it covers, you know, ingredients and equipment and techniques and things like that.
Jamil Zainasheff:And I think it's, it's pretty good for, you know, that that's another one where you're interested in a certain subject.
Jamil Zainasheff:You can just pick it up and jump right in there.
Jamil Zainasheff:You don't have to read it from the beginning or anything like that.
Jamil Zainasheff:So I think that's a good handy book for people.
Jamil Zainasheff:I. Yeah.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, really proud of all the BYO articles I wrote and for Brew Your Own magazine, because they started just letting me write as much as I wanted on, on stuff.
Jamil Zainasheff:So, I got to get into it into more detail, like dry stouts.
Jamil Zainasheff:Uh, you know, I, you can't just, you know, give people the Guinness as a recipe or as a description of dry stout.
Jamil Zainasheff:It's, you gotta do the Murphy's and the Beamish.
Jamil Zainasheff:I did all three in the article and explain the differences and gave three different recipes so you could brew any, any one of those, you know, kind of clone ish versions of those, those three stouts.
Jamil Zainasheff:So I really liked that.
Jamil Zainasheff:I thought that that was great.
Jamil Zainasheff:So back issues of BYO are a great thing too.
Jamil Zainasheff:McFleshman's: Yeah, we're, we're definitely selling you short, you're prolific for sure.
Jamil Zainasheff:Alright, well that'll conclude this episode of Respecting the Beer.
Jamil Zainasheff:The producer of Respecting the Beer is David Kelso.
Jamil Zainasheff:Without David, there would not be a show.
Jamil Zainasheff:Please join the Facebook group to get updates and to support the show over on Patreon where you can listen to the bits that don't make it onto the show and get access to special events here at Macle Men's available only to Patreon and Pub Club members.
Jamil Zainasheff:Links to both of these are in the show notes.
Jamil Zainasheff:Till next time, please remember to respect the beer.
