Fuller's Brewery Knows Tradition w/ John Keeling

E80 John Keeling, Fuller's Brewery MAIN FEED 1

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Welcome John Keeling!

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With me again, as usual, is the historian of Hops, Joel Hermansen and the man who just joined the new cover band, Tom Petty and the beer makers, Mr. Bobby f Fleshman. Nice. We got a great interview today. Coming to us all the way from the United Kingdom is the former brewmaster at Fullers. John Keeling, a man who's probably forgotten more about beer than we know.

Um, John, thanks for being on the

Thank you for having me.

Uh, why don't we get started?

John Keeling's Journey into Brewing

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Why don't you just briefly kind of to give us your story about how you got started in beer and

Alright.

The official story or the

unofficial story.

The unofficial one's probably more

ant to go back to school and [: 00:01:00

And I was not keen on that either, but she said, but fortunately, she'd got me an interview at the local brewery. So I went along for this interview and lo and behold, I got the job at the local brewery, which was in Manchester where I'm born. And it was Wilson's Brewery in Newton Heath, Manchester. And they were part of the Watney group, uh, way back in the seventies.

dy at Harriet Watt, and then [: 00:02:00

And I've, I was there for 38 years, um, and 19 years as their brewing director, head brewer that in,

If you're Manchester, I have to ask, do you support City

Uh, United.

All right.

I as, as did my father before me. It's, it's a well known fact that, uh, Manchester City fans think they're manian, but they really all come from Stockport. They see the reds that come from Manchester.

That's a little football joke to all you football fans,

right? I, I, I'm sure you know Charlie

Charlie. Sorry. Yes, I do. Yes. I, I I do know Charlie. Yeah. The, uh, the

pule of foam.

derail. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. I [: 00:03:00

Our passion for cask married with yours. And, and, uh, so I reached out and I've asked you for advice over the years on ordering hops and how to use them, et cetera, in these English beers. And the opportunity came up for the Great Taste of Wco or great, great taste of the Midwest

in Madison. Yeah, in

Madison, Wisconsin.

n or in England to, to maybe [: 00:04:00

And I guess we'll get into how you, how Fullers made beer and how, how we try to simulate it. Uh, but yeah, that's sort of it. We've never physically met and we hope to get you here stateside soon, uh, at some point to see what we've done. But in the meantime, this is a beer we did, uh, virtually

that would, that would be nice. It would be nice to see you.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

The Art of Brewing at Fullers

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So, uh, do you wanna, you wanna talk about how Fullers makes beer and how they've made beer Historically? It's, it's a unique

Yeah.

Well, uh, you know, there's lots of different ways to make beer and little variations on, on how you make beer. And I used to say to people. That my job is not to be the best brewer in the world. My job is to be the best fullest brewer in the world because the way Fullers make beer is different from other people.

her brewers. The way St. Ael [: 00:05:00

When I was first of Fullers, uh, Fullers was really a, a, a London brewery at that point. We, we had gone a little bit out of London, but we were still a London brewery. And, and drinking in Fullers pubs was, was like supporting your local football team. People who drank Fullers thought thought that Fullers was the best beer in the world.

They didn't drink a great deal of anybody else's. They drank Fullers and then, and I think where I was from in Manchester, Boddington's was the best bearing because that's what Manchester people liked to drink in your local brewery. You immerse yourself in the culture of that and the culture of the pubs.

And, and then [: 00:06:00

We use a system in, uh, called the Party Gale System, which really means that you have two mastone and two coppers. You bash, you, you, you mash in, in, uh, first thing in the morning, both mash tons at the same time, and you then run off both at the same time and they fill copper number one. Copper number one is therefore very strong because it gets all the first runnings from the masto.

e is full, you start that to [: 00:07:00

And we did that by blending the two coppers together in fermenting vessel. And uh, then adding the yeast in fermenting. The other thing we did would, we would add two thirds of all the hops to the first couple. And one third to the second copper. And that's because we wanted the stronger beers to have more bitterness than the weaker beers.

thirds of the hops. This was [: 00:08:00

And it evolved and evolved and become, uh, when I left, it was fully automated computer run, uh, and everything. Nothing could go wrong once you'd committed to, to making the beer, unless the plant and machinery broke down In the early days, it was very hands-on.

Historical Beers and Emotional Connections

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Uh, a very manual job in, in fact, when, when we come to reviewing the brilliant records in my time there, uh, we was looking to make beers from the past, we call them past masters, and we wanted to make the exact same recipe in the place where it, it, it was made originally.

ople must have an emotional, [: 00:09:00

And this recipe we, we made. And partway through making it, people started talking about the First World War, saying, you know, this beer we made, which. Would've been drunk by all the troops in, in Middlesex and in Surrey. Um, it was stationed there going out to the second World War because that's where Fullers were strong.

was another beer we made from: 1966

And we wanted to prove that because, uh, uh, we wanted to recognize that fact. And then one of the old brewers who was just about to retire, tapped me on the shoulder when I was looking at this recipe, and he said, John, you know what? I brewed that beer on that day. And he had made that beer, so we made him make the next beer.

rewers, he'd made the beer in: 1966

in, uh, type of beer that we [: 00:11:00

They, that was a standard way of making beer, um, the lanterns. Uh, we certainly not in British brewing. They might have been in European brewing and mash filters were not in British brewing. They were not inve invented for another a hundred and so years. But Ashtons were the old fashioned way of making beer.

And it's also what was good about mash duns, I feel it's a very calm situation. You don't rank the bed, you don't stir it or anything like that. And so when you get words off and when it runs properly, it becomes very clear because the mash itself forms its own filter. And if you don't disturb it, that filter runs all the time.

word, which, which helps cas [: 00:12:00

And it still is, uh, really the traditional beer, but it's not the most popular beer anymore. But

How, how, how is Cas doing today? I, I hear it's, it's down and it's down, but then occasionally I hear that it's maybe coming back up and I'm thinking about it in England.

I, I

dely distributed as it is in [: 00:13:00

So it it, it is the ideal temperature. For, for making cas beer and, and storing it and distributing it. It's, it's not too cold. Casper does not like being freezing cold, and it does not like being too warm either. It's got to be in that correct temperature, temperature range. And what is it doing in Britain?

% of the beer.[: 00:14:00

Right.

John, I wanted to ask a quick question. First of all, thanks for being here. It's a privilege to talk with you. Your reputation, uh, precedes you. Um. I, we do a lot at McManns focusing on history. So listening to your story about the past masters and, and, uh, the soldiers in Middlesex, et cetera. You know, going off and having their last beers is pretty inspirational for us.

Modernization and Consistency in Brewing

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Um, but I know that that isn't your whole story because I know you're also someone who has overseen, uh, the transition of Fullers to, uh, a larger, more modern brewery as well. So I'm wondering if you can, uh, in addition to the historical, if you can talk a little bit about the science and technology that you ushered in, uh, at Fullers.

I think

if you look back. [: 00:15:00

Where, where is that match time these days? I have to interrupt. Where did that equipment

Um, it's still there. We still keep,

It's still there. Okay.

it in a museum. They, uh, sort of like, there's bits and pieces all dotted around the tour. So in between all the modern plant, you have some of the old plant which is left so that people who come on the tour are Fullers. And I, I recommend it to go home when you're in London is using, we will see the old equipment as well as the new equipment.

using them in the seventies [: 00:16:00

Our yeast prefers enclosed fermentation than it did the open squares. I I, I used to speak to the old brewers who used to brew on the open squares, and they brewed on the Conicals as well, and I, I, and we moved all to the conicals for, for the reason we thought it made better beer. But they said once in a blue moon, the open squares would produce the best beer, but it also more often than not, produce the worst beer.

o if you say we are going to [: 00:17:00

There's no guessing in that. I I, I also remember talking and reading old brewing books and, and this is the, the revolution, the evolution of brewing has occurred ever since we started brewing. But how did they know the right temperature to mash in when they mashed in without a thermometer, when thermometers weren't invented?

thermometers were invented, [: 00:18:00

And why was that? Because it took away a skill that they had. Nobody else knew the right temperature. Only the brewer. Yeah. But when a thermometer was invented, it was easy to know when the right temperature. And I think that's what Fullers did. During my time there, we moved to make more consistent beer and also a longer shelf life.

Beer. The beer didn't go off as quickly because we brewed it better and better. And we use modern science to inform us on, on how to do that. Especially say for for small pack, you know how to produce a beer for small pack that will last six months. It, it's much different from producing a cas beer, which you want to last four weeks, and it's different.

ifferences, what you have to [: 00:19:00

lerate the oxidation process.[: 00:20:00

So by having too much oxygen in there, and again, the, the bottle condition bears have yeast in them, which constantly mop up any oxygen that comes past the cap, uh, on the, on the bottle top. So I, measuring and, and, and, and understanding the role of oxygen in bare flavor, I think, you know, again, science has shed that light on there.

And brewing science has gone forward in, in leaps and bounds, even from when I started in, in the seventies. Uh, and, and, and one, I think one of the reasons why this is a, a lot of the science in the seventies was designed to. Produce to remove flavor from beer so that it was easier to hold for 12 months.

ot of flavor with the advent [: 00:21:00

And how do you manage that? And, and the conclusion I came to is you've got to seek to make those changes positive rather than negative. Beer will change in flavor. Uh, when you taste the beer at three years old and, and having tasted the same beer at one month old. It will change in flavor. There's nothing you can do to stop that and instead of trying

to

How many thoughts do you have going through your head right now after that?

You, you know me well, yeah,

I do.

at. I would say one thing we [: 00:22:00

We generally use Timothy Taylor, uh, and 'cause we have open

Yeah.

on all of our English ales. And I will say that it does manifest very differently in, in that open, that it does the, the fuller strain. I, I was surprised. I'm always surprised when we do, when we see like how they manifest on the surface and how you can tell just by looking at that, which you're working with.

But it, it's funny you would say that, that maybe one has been sort of selected at this point for closed fermentation.

Yes, yes. But again, one of the things, I mean, I've worked a lot on, on, on, on this aspect and. When we come, we, we took over a brewery called Gale's. It would open fermentation as well. And we converted them to being an enclosed fermentation. And what, what you have to do is you have to look in a common sense way at fermentation.

on out is not top or bottom. [: 00:23:00

So I knew some of our yeast was settling at the bottom as well as floating on the top. If you select the bottom yeast, eventually you'll convert it into a bottom collection. And that's what we did with both the fuller yeast and the Gales yeas. So you can select to make it. So what? To reselect the yeast to be a top fermenting yeast, all you do is you, you collect the yeast that floats to the top.

t'd be a thin layer, but you [: 00:24:00

This is turning into a multigenerational collaboration. I can see, we'll select a couple times over that. That, that's a rabbit hole. I'd love to dive down. My wife is not here with us, but if she were there would be two against one, I think when it comes to cast sitting at the table here. Yeah. Three, including yourself.

And, uh, Joel. Joel is, uh, how we were talking a little bit about this, how you guys were the yin and yang of beer. Yeah, there,

e that you, you had, uh, from: 2015

nna say I am the person like [: 00:25:00

man. Yeah. Right.

I,

I, I, or simpleton, whichever you thank,

thank you. Yeah. I, I can appreciate the merits of cask beer. Um, I, it's just, it's, it's just not something that I, that I like.

I've got two answers.

I'm a monochromatic

I've got two answers. A and answers to that is firstly there, there is only actually two types of beer in the world. Yeah. There's bears I like, and beers I don't. And those are the only two types. And the second thing is if you, if you don't like Cas beer, it it's, you have to work hard to try and like it.

re to drink just a half pint [: 00:26:00

Okay.

be a long 12 months for you. But you'll get that.

and yeah, part of it. And like, I don't like coffee either. I'm like a, I'm a strange person when it comes to drinks. I don't like coffee. You're gonna hate me for this too. I don't like tea. I don't like warm things.

Well.

When I'm drinking something, I really only drink four things. I drink water, I drink milk, I drink fruit juices, and I drink West Coast IPAs.

That, that's the extent, that's like the extent of

Well, I, I suppose if you were going to, uh, only pick four, you know, that's, that's not a bad.

right.

made a trip to, to England in: 2008

I got to be in these pubs across and, and you get to, to be a part of the community in a, in a certain way. So we were, we were thinking about building our tap room and if you look online, you can see pictures of it to, to try to do, be the best we could to transport what you might find in England or Ireland or Scotland back here.

And then brew beers that would, uh, would do them justice. Speaking of which, we just got a silver at the US Open for our English.

Well, that's good. Yeah.

one one in which that I've communicated with you about and you, and you told me to to stop. I think you did not say stop fucking with it, but a lot of people do say that to me.

So I did and it, and it succeeded. I dunno where I'm going there. I guess I was trying to say though, that. Allison, my wife and I, we, we have a different introduction to cask than people who've not been able to experience

Well,

and, and,

The Social Aspect of Beer

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thing and I think one of the [: 00:28:00

Yes.

and, and to do that I, I, I think is a, a, a great thing be because

And sadly, that's gonna wrap up this episode of Respecting the Beer. The producer of the show is me, David Kalsow. with music by Sarah Lynn Huss.

Come back in two weeks to hear the rest of the conversation with John Keeling. As next week, we'll be celebrating October Fest with a special episode. If you want to hear the full conversation with John Keeling right now, you can head on over to Patreon and support at any level, get you access to fully uncut episodes.

We've also [: 00:29:00

And until next time, please remember to respect the beer.