Episode 57
The Shrink of Drink Returns w/ Eric Eastman
Eric Eastman, the Shrink of Drink, joins Gary, Allison, and Joel to discuss the psychological and sensory influences behind why we enjoy different types of beer. From nature versus nurture to sensory interaction, what makes your favorite brew, yours?
Listen to Eric's podcast, MysterE's Mysteries: https://lnns.co/pd75mUR1IS-
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TIMELINE
00:00 Welcome the Shrink of Drink
01:42 The Science of Taste Preferences
04:22 Persuasion in Beer Enjoyment
07:35 The Role of Environment and Music
12:27 The Language of Taste
15:00 Blind Beer Tasting Experience
15:51 Understanding Beer Sensory Perception
16:32 The Just Noticeable Difference in Beer Tasting
18:10 Training for Beer Tasting
20:02 Comparing Beer and Wine
21:23 The Influence of Social Norms on Taste
22:29 The Most Expensive Beer in the World
27:42 The Power of Visual Appeal in Beer
30:09 Conclusion and Farewell
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CREDITS
Hosts:
Music by Sarah Lynn Huss
Recorded & Produced by David Kalsow
Brought to you by McFleshman's Brewing Co
Transcript
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Respecting the Beer.
Gary Arndt:My name is Gary Arndt.
Gary Arndt:Got another great lineup.
Gary Arndt:Today.
Gary Arndt:With me again is the historian of Hops and the man who doesn't have to worry about daylight savings 'cause all of his clocks are permanently set to 5 47.
Gary Arndt:Mr. Joel Hermanson.
Gary Arndt:Wow.
Gary Arndt:But am I wrong?
Gary Arndt:Oh, that is brilliant.
Allison Fleshman:The look on his face was like, this eyeopening, like he said, true.
Allison Fleshman:Wait a minute.
Allison Fleshman:It probably should be.
Joel Hermansan:Wow.
Joel Hermansan:That was outstanding.
Gary Arndt:Also with us, the Good Doctor is currently applying for a government grant to study the quantum effects of beer foam.
Gary Arndt:Dr. Allison McCoy Fleshman, and we got back on the show, the Shrink of Drink,
Gary Arndt:Eric Eastman.
Allison Fleshman:That almost came out my nose.
Gary Arndt:That is happening right now.
Allison Fleshman:I'm crying.
Allison Fleshman:That's awesome.
Gary Arndt:You are.
Gary Arndt:You're witnessing a professional podcast in his element.
Gary Arndt:That's what you're witnessing.
Gary Arndt:That's my goodness.
Gary Arndt:Wow.
Joel Hermansan:Okay.
Joel Hermansan:Go team.
Joel Hermansan:I am so calling you the shrink of drink.
Joel Hermansan:Oh my gosh.
Eric Eastman:Wow.
Eric Eastman:That is one heck of a compliment.
Eric Eastman:Okay.
Eric Eastman:And
Joel Hermansan:lost in the shuffle.
Joel Hermansan:Yours?
Joel Hermansan:The grant on quantum foam.
Joel Hermansan:That was, yeah, it's
Allison Fleshman:all in the bubbles.
Allison Fleshman:I hear the bubbles.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:Wow.
Allison Fleshman:Fascinating.
Gary Arndt:Holy and quantum phone.
Gary Arndt:It was technically a thing,
Allison Fleshman:right?
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:No, that is legit.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah, quantum foam is a thing.
Allison Fleshman:I don't study it, so, but you know what?
Allison Fleshman:I could, why not carry the
Gary Arndt:best in the business?
Gary Arndt:So last time you were on the show we talked about a whole bunch of different psychological elements with regards to selling beer, our enjoyment of beer, a lot of things like that.
Gary Arndt:And this is kind of a continuation of that discussion.
Gary Arndt:So you also have a podcast.
Gary Arndt:I've listened to it and you've talked about how our brains work.
Gary Arndt:So I have a very simple question.
Gary Arndt:We have Allison.
Gary Arndt:We got Joel.
Gary Arndt:Joel likes 5 47.
Gary Arndt:Allison likes MSB.
Gary Arndt:Humans fundamentally have the same sensory organs, yet his taste buds and his brain says, I like hops, I like this bitter taste.
Gary Arndt:And Allison's comes up to a different conclusion.
Gary Arndt:I like this other thing.
Gary Arndt:Malt.
Gary Arndt:How is it that there are some things generally, I don't think there's anybody that doesn't like ice cream yet.
Gary Arndt:We have such different.
Gary Arndt:Profiles when it comes to things we like in terms of like taste, how does our brain get wired that way if we rerun, if we could go back in time and change something in Joel's life.
Gary Arndt:Could he wind up an MSB drinker?
Gary Arndt:We could change so much to Joel's life.
Eric Eastman:That would be the start.
Eric Eastman:Where should we begin?
Eric Eastman:No, honestly, it, it comes back to the whole debate, nature versus nurture.
Eric Eastman:The whole combination of genetics and environment.
Eric Eastman:Mere exposure of certain tastes early on in life can make a difference into what we, what we prefer.
Eric Eastman:So just that as a, as a starting point, that can be an influential entity to, what we're interested in as well as any sort of minute influences that can shift us in certain directions of not even what we.
Eric Eastman:Are predisposed to like, but little tiny influences that lead us in.
Eric Eastman:Certain directions different types of influences, different types of things that persuade us in, various directions.
Gary Arndt:One of the, and I don't know if there's, I read something about this a while back, but children like, don't like brussel sprouts, right?
Gary Arndt:That's just
Allison Fleshman:wrong.
Allison Fleshman:They hate
Gary Arndt:it, but a lot of, and so a lot of people will not eat Brussels sprouts for a big part of their life, and then as an adult.
Gary Arndt:They will try it and they're like, well, this, this isn't bad.
Gary Arndt:This is not what I remember first time.
Gary Arndt:A lot of people ever taste beer.
Gary Arndt:They don't like it.
Gary Arndt:It's, it's, eh, I don't, you know, which is probably good if you're a kid.
Gary Arndt:And then later in life it's something we appreciate.
Gary Arndt:You're ready to say something?
Gary Arndt:I, I am.
Gary Arndt:I am.
Eric Eastman:Like, I'm so, so all I can think of is people's experiences when they walk in to Mc Flesh Men's and they see Joel.
Eric Eastman:So we will just talk about many of them run.
Eric Eastman:Aw, absolutely.
Eric Eastman:They, they run yeah.
Eric Eastman:Towards me, towards the bar.
Eric Eastman:Right.
Eric Eastman:To him for many different reasons.
Eric Eastman:But there are influences that Joel brings every time people come into the bar.
Eric Eastman:two specific routes of persuasion.
Eric Eastman:Joel will wow them.
Eric Eastman:With the information that he has tucked into that brain.
Eric Eastman:Think of Cliff Claven from Cheers.
Eric Eastman:Okay.
Eric Eastman:Just filled with information.
Eric Eastman:Trivia nerd.
Eric Eastman:Okay.
Eric Eastman:And that's gonna be Central Router Persuasion, where the information about a particular beer, specifically in this case, 5 4 7, can sway people towards.
Eric Eastman:5, 4, 7. But then you a have his peripheral route of persuasion.
Eric Eastman:That's going to be his excitement.
Eric Eastman:The way he carries himself when he talks about it.
Eric Eastman:the facial expressions that he makes the, the, the just sheer energy that he brings to it.
Eric Eastman:you look at any sort of influential person.
Eric Eastman:So do we, do you think, do we have any KISS fans here?
Eric Eastman:At the table.
Eric Eastman:You, you know me.
Eric Eastman:No.
Eric Eastman:Right?
Eric Eastman:Not a, not a KISS fan at all.
Eric Eastman:I, no, no.
Eric Eastman:I
Allison Fleshman:appreciate what they're trying to do, but do you really?
Allison Fleshman:No.
Allison Fleshman:No?
Allison Fleshman:Okay.
Allison Fleshman:I don't.
Eric Eastman:So like, if you take the band kiss and if you listen to their lyrics and their music.
Eric Eastman:For people that are music connoisseur, it would be pretty limited.
Eric Eastman:So their central router persuasion would be limited in for many people.
Eric Eastman:But their peripheral router persuasion, that's gonna be the show they put on.
Eric Eastman:The makeup that they have, the, the, the light show that they produce influences people to really love the experience.
Eric Eastman:So some people, when they walk into the bar and they see Joel, they're gonna be influenced by the information that he's given.
Eric Eastman:That's gonna be the central router persuasion, black and white makeup on Joel, about
Allison Fleshman:to say that's
Gary Arndt:it's a done deal.
Gary Arndt:Yeah.
Gary Arndt:Yeah.
Gary Arndt:We'd like to have an
Allison Fleshman:all staff meeting.
Gary Arndt:Yep.
Gary Arndt:Just as an aside, I listened to a fascinating interview with Gene Simmons where they talked about the business decision in the seventies, never to be seen without their makeup, and there were people that were offering like $10,000 for a picture of kiss without their makeup on, and they would, they were like fanatical about this, and it was just to keep the mystique up and he was like real honest about it.
Gary Arndt:Yeah.
Gary Arndt:It was a. It was a business decision, that's all it was.
Gary Arndt:And they did that for ages.
Gary Arndt:And then when they finally did a, a tour without their makeup, that was a big thing because that wasn't a, a showing, you
Eric Eastman:know, that
Gary Arndt:wasn't a, yeah.
Gary Arndt:What they were doing.
Eric Eastman:Yeah, 100%.
Eric Eastman:That, that, that is amazing.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Eric Eastman:That is so, that is so cool that that those business decisions, I mean, people go to get an MBA at the best universities in the world.
Eric Eastman:The first class they take is the business behavioral finance.
Eric Eastman:Mm-hmm.
Eric Eastman:That's like the first class they take, which is totally psychologically driven.
Eric Eastman:So that makes total sense.
Allison Fleshman:So let's assume that I walk into mc, Bushman's Brewing Company and Joel is not.
Allison Fleshman:On staff that night.
Allison Fleshman:Mm-hmm.
Allison Fleshman:Let's say it's a Tuesday and one of our other, you just come back on a Wednesday
Gary Arndt:and you go to Jack's Apple Pub,
Allison Fleshman:one of our other amazing beer tenders.
Allison Fleshman:Is there, so what other, are there things that aren't people driven, influencers but still affect Oh yeah.
Allison Fleshman:So response.
Eric Eastman:Absolutely.
Eric Eastman:If you look at any sort of level of associative learning, you know, like if you take.
Eric Eastman:Any sort of like, let's, let's take a negative connotation where I eat a, a ham sandwich and I have a bad experience with a ham sandwich.
Eric Eastman:There, there could be something called an overgeneralization, right?
Eric Eastman:Where anything that is remotely close to a ham sandwich I'm going to avoid.
Eric Eastman:Hmm.
Eric Eastman:Right?
Eric Eastman:But then if you look at a place like Mc Fleshman and you walk in and you might not have.
Eric Eastman:The bartender that you want to have.
Eric Eastman:Okay.
Eric Eastman:And in some cases, that could make people walk right out the door.
Allison Fleshman:Oh man.
Eric Eastman:Right.
Eric Eastman:And that's gonna be called, all of our
Allison Fleshman:people are lovely, I promise.
Allison Fleshman:Promise.
Allison Fleshman:No, I'm gonna
Eric Eastman:get to that.
Eric Eastman:I'm gonna get to that.
Eric Eastman:That's called discrimination.
Eric Eastman:Mm-hmm.
Eric Eastman:And then they might want to walk out.
Eric Eastman:But when you have a bunch of the same beer tenders that portray and create the same vibe and the same aura, and you have beyond people.
Eric Eastman:The, the woodworking, the lack of TVs.
Eric Eastman:Mm. the bar, the socialization.
Eric Eastman:Yep.
Eric Eastman:The bar, the
Joel Hermansan:bar mirror too, I feel is Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:The back bar.
Joel Hermansan:The bar mirror.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Eric Eastman:Absolutely.
Eric Eastman:I think one of the things that John o' Boyle, one of your previous guests on the show talked about was the intelligence of not only the beer tenders, but the people that.
Eric Eastman:Come into this place.
Eric Eastman:Mm-hmm.
Eric Eastman:I think that in and of itself creates an association that generates real positivity and it actually increases the, the, the desire to drink beer and
Allison Fleshman:makes beer taste better.
Allison Fleshman:Makes
Eric Eastman:it taste better.
Eric Eastman:Yeah, exactly.
Gary Arndt:Me think Mc Fleshman smart.
Allison Fleshman:Sounds good.
Gary Arndt:You sound like Kevin from the office.
Gary Arndt:I know that's funny.
Gary Arndt:No.
Joel Hermansan:So you mentioned kiss.
Joel Hermansan:Does, do you think music has any role in this?
Joel Hermansan:And I know you and I have talked about like I think there's better music to drink beer and to visit with people with, and no offense to any KISS fans out there.
Joel Hermansan:I don't think KISS is that is that music, but I, I think there are.
Joel Hermansan:Musical tastes that align with that vibe.
Joel Hermansan:Am have, am am I missing something on that?
Joel Hermansan:Is that
Eric Eastman:true?
Eric Eastman:No, absolutely.
Eric Eastman:100%. Again, when you look at those associa associations that people make, I think it can be, can really sway people's experiences.
Eric Eastman:There is a brewery, in the Midwest that.
Eric Eastman:If I were to walk into that brewery, the music that they played would, it would turn me off immediately.
Eric Eastman:right.
Eric Eastman:And I'm not gonna say what that music is or what that brewery is, but they have wonderful beer.
Eric Eastman:But I, it would not taste good to me because the Kid Rock House of Hops,
Eric Eastman:you know, you mentioned Kid Rock and I'm not gonna talk about Kid Rock, but that's more of a meth type, music, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eric Eastman:Meth lager.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Eric Eastman:So Hulk Hogan has been generating some waves, and he's going to be coming here.
Eric Eastman:And that is when I was talking about like a a peripheral route of persuasion and influencing beer drinkers.
Eric Eastman:it has nothing to do with the beer whatsoever.
Eric Eastman:It has absolutely to do with this persona.
Eric Eastman:And then when you look at, to, to get back to your question, when you look at musical tastes.
Eric Eastman:There's 100% ways where certain music generates this calm community type of vibe.
Eric Eastman:And then there's going to be certain music that generates individuality.
Eric Eastman:And then there are gonna be certain music musical taste that's gonna generate excitement.
Eric Eastman:I, I, I mean, you look at nightclubs that play, they, they, they play the music because the kids like it, but they also play it because it.
Eric Eastman:Creates this energy where people are going to be active and be moving and they're gonna drink and et cetera, et cetera.
Eric Eastman:So yeah, absolutely.
Eric Eastman:Music is gonna play a huge role in that.
Allison Fleshman:That's true at a James nightclub doesn't necessarily have the same sort of bouncy vibe as a. Really good at a James.
Allison Fleshman:Okay.
Eric Eastman:I I just love that you mentioned outta James, right?
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Eric Eastman:I mean, outta a James Bill Withers, like just keep bringing them.
Eric Eastman:Right.
Eric Eastman:Oh, good.
Eric Eastman:Keep bringing 'em good music.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:Okay.
Allison Fleshman:I have a question.
Allison Fleshman:So I, in my, the science of beer tasting class of which I believe you were a student as well as the previous podcaster, with this John Boyle.
Allison Fleshman:I have a quote that I really appreciate, which is, taste is the most honest communication we can have with ourselves.
Allison Fleshman:When I'm talking with folks from all walks of life, of beer experiences, half the folks will say, I don't know what I'm supposed to be tasting.
Allison Fleshman:And so they won't share what they're actually tasting.
Allison Fleshman:And I try and say, encourage them.
Allison Fleshman:Just say words.
Allison Fleshman:Doesn't matter.
Allison Fleshman:There's not necessarily a vocabulary.
Allison Fleshman:You, you taste what you taste and you like what you like.
Allison Fleshman:Can you.
Allison Fleshman:Answer to that of is taste really honesty to ourselves.
Eric Eastman:So I I, I think I, I have two directions that I can go with.
Eric Eastman:Let's, let's do both.
Eric Eastman:Let's go team.
Eric Eastman:So the first direction I would go with is to let, let's say, people that live in northern Alaska, okay, I know this is random, love it.
Eric Eastman:But they have 33 different words for snow.
Eric Eastman:So they have these descriptors.
Eric Eastman:Actually,
Allison Fleshman:I think that makes sense because of the different crystal structures that ICE can undergo.
Allison Fleshman:Let me check.
Eric Eastman:Hey everybody,
Gary Arndt:this is the
Allison Fleshman:nerd section of the podcast.
Gary Arndt:It's actually because they put adjectives into the word.
Eric Eastman:I love it.
Eric Eastman:But, but they have these distinct phrases and words that they can use that can be descriptors and that allows them to.
Eric Eastman:impact the way they think and that, that's called linguistic determinism where language influences thought, right.
Eric Eastman:So when you're having pe people that are not super familiar with beer mm-hmm.
Eric Eastman:Try to describe the taste.
Eric Eastman:If they don't have the language to describe what they're tasting, they may have a difficult time thinking, articulating Oh, okay.
Eric Eastman:About what they're tasting.
Eric Eastman:So that would be the first.
Eric Eastman:Direction that I would go in.
Eric Eastman:And now I can't think about the second one because I, well, it's because
Allison Fleshman:there are 19 forms of ice, 20, depending on who you ask.
Allison Fleshman:I think that's still in peer review.
Allison Fleshman:But anyway, there are 19 different ways.
Allison Fleshman:So you said that they have, how many words for ice?
Allison Fleshman:I
Eric Eastman:for
Gary Arndt:snow?
Gary Arndt:33. For snow 33.
Gary Arndt:Oh, okay.
Gary Arndt:Well, that's, yeah.
Gary Arndt:The only experience, one form of ice at.
Gary Arndt:The pressure and temperatures that humans, well, I
Allison Fleshman:don't make it unfun, Gary.
Allison Fleshman:Sorry.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah, Gary.
Joel Hermansan:So beer.
Joel Hermansan:Does this have any, do you remember when you and I did the beard tasting and we tried to identify beers?
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:Do you remember how poorly that went?
Joel Hermansan:Oh, yeah.
Joel Hermansan:It was atrocious.
Joel Hermansan:Wait, did y,
Allison Fleshman:was it blindfolded?
Allison Fleshman:What was the tell?
Allison Fleshman:Walk me through this.
Allison Fleshman:It had, we had,
Joel Hermansan:I don't know that we were blindfolded, but it was blinded.
Joel Hermansan:It was blind tasting.
Eric Eastman:Okay.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Eric Eastman:We didn't know what we were drinking.
Eric Eastman:Yeah,
Joel Hermansan:yeah, yeah.
Joel Hermansan:And we both went into it.
Joel Hermansan:Kind of thinking, oh, well this is like an IPA tasting.
Joel Hermansan:Of course these are beers that we're really familiar with.
Joel Hermansan:We're gonna totally nail this.
Joel Hermansan:And it, yeah, it couldn't have gone any worse.
Eric Eastman:So this is why I love psych 'cause because we, we can go in so many different directions with this, but in this case.
Eric Eastman:What is like super cool about this conversation is, number one, we're gonna experience overconfidence.
Eric Eastman:We're always gonna be more confident than we are, correct.
Joel Hermansan:Right.
Joel Hermansan:And I never, that never applies to me.
Joel Hermansan:So
Eric Eastman:we got laughter in the, in the cheeks.
Eric Eastman:Oh, seats back here.
Eric Eastman:God, it's back here.
Eric Eastman:But, but number two, when you have like.
Eric Eastman:Two beers that you think you can tell the difference between, but you have the, the, the, the, the beer right in front of you.
Eric Eastman:The difference between, let's say two different West Coast IPAs, if you don't, if you are not a super sensory taster, right?
Eric Eastman:There's something called Familiar.
Eric Eastman:Go ahead.
Eric Eastman:No,
Allison Fleshman:no, go ahead.
Allison Fleshman:No.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah,
Eric Eastman:there's something called Just Noticeable Difference.
Eric Eastman:Mm. Where, and it's according to we, there's Weaver's Law and all this sort of stuff.
Eric Eastman:Different threshold where these flavors are really indis indistinguishable to us.
Eric Eastman:Like, like the, we're just not sommeliers of beer.
Eric Eastman:What is a sommelier beer called?
Eric Eastman:Ci the Cone.
Eric Eastman:Thank you so much.
Eric Eastman:Actually, he is.
Eric Eastman:I'm a level one Cicero.
Eric Eastman:Are you a level one?
Eric Eastman:Cicero?
Eric Eastman:I'm not even that.
Eric Eastman:So you're working towards it.
Eric Eastman:You're a level one and still can't discern between those two flavors.
Allison Fleshman:Keep failing, Joel, you keep failing.
Allison Fleshman:So, hey, keep, my
Eric Eastman:goal is to fail forward.
Eric Eastman:Fail forward.
Eric Eastman:You become president of the United States.
Eric Eastman:that's, this is not a political podcast.
Eric Eastman:I don't mean that in a, I, I think, anyway, okay, let's move forward.
Eric Eastman:I, I can talk about Abraham Lincoln failing forward.
Eric Eastman:Okay, let's move on.
Eric Eastman:All right.
Eric Eastman:So, but you know what I mean, like.
Eric Eastman:With that different threshold, you're a level one CSO cone, cone, CSA level one cone.
Eric Eastman:And you couldn't discern the difference between two IPAs that are fairly similar, and that is just all based off of experience.
Eric Eastman:Mm-hmm.
Eric Eastman:based off of expectance what you expect to, to have.
Eric Eastman:And then it's also based off of motivation.
Eric Eastman:Like how motivated are you to taste?
Eric Eastman:The difference in the situation where we were like taste, texting those peers.
Eric Eastman:We weren't highly motivated, we were just having a good time getting, you know, a little tipsy, whatever.
Eric Eastman:But if it was a, a absolute contest, we'd prepare for it.
Eric Eastman:We would, you know, do taste testers ahead of time, those types of things.
Eric Eastman:And we would have much greater experience doing it and we'd become better at
Allison Fleshman:it.
Allison Fleshman:I was about to say the different tastings that we've done Bobby and I, trained with the, so the Siebel Institute, which is a, basically beer school.
Allison Fleshman:Have these kits to where you can train yourself and un like, understand your threshold level of different off flavors.
Allison Fleshman:Mm-hmm.
Allison Fleshman:and I do this in one of the, the beer tasting, classes where we douse one of our beers with a cont, an intentional contaminant.
Allison Fleshman:And everyone's like, oh, that's so gross.
Allison Fleshman:And oh, this is, you know, I can taste the butter or I can taste the cardboard, or I have spared everyone from baby vomit.
Eric Eastman:Thank
Allison Fleshman:you.
Allison Fleshman:because that one's really gross.
Allison Fleshman:But the idea is that you, so when we've tasted, when we've done this, never had
Eric Eastman:buckhorn beer.
Allison Fleshman:Oh.
Allison Fleshman:Oh gosh.
Allison Fleshman:so when you do these trainings, it is brutal because you start with a very low concentration.
Allison Fleshman:Of it's typically like we'll dow some like PBR and we'll do various concentrations.
Allison Fleshman:so we'll taste one that has basically trace amounts and then we increase the concentration, increase concentration, and everyone has their own card.
Allison Fleshman:And you start to mark, and they're all done in triangle tests to where you don't know if it's two beer.
Allison Fleshman:So there's three beers in front of you.
Allison Fleshman:One of them is different.
Allison Fleshman:And you don't know if the one is the contaminated one or the two are the contaminated one, and you have to pick out the difference.
Allison Fleshman:And so you keep doing that until you basically, until you actually can successfully pick out all the differences.
Allison Fleshman:And that gives you your threshold.
Allison Fleshman:It takes hours.
Allison Fleshman:It is brutal and boring.
Allison Fleshman:And that sort of training that you have to do would be for every kind of compound present in the beers, which are, I mean, it could be thousands.
Allison Fleshman:So this is where your beer judge certification program judges get their training to.
Allison Fleshman:Actually, it's, it's not really tasting beer at that point.
Allison Fleshman:I mean, it is, but it's a whole new world.
Gary Arndt:Beer is not nearly as bad as wine.
Allison Fleshman:Oh, I don't even wanna know about that.
Gary Arndt:That, oh my god.
Gary Arndt:There's, there's not a hundred dollars bottle of beer, but there's a hundred hold up.
Gary Arndt:You can, you can get a $10,000 bottle of wine.
Allison Fleshman:Oh, that's fair.
Allison Fleshman:And.
Gary Arndt:There are also there, there's more that goes into wine, I think, because roughly most brewers, by and large, it's not perfectly true, are using similar to the same ingredients.
Gary Arndt:Or you can, most brewers are not farmers, but wineries grow their own crop.
Gary Arndt:And so you can have, well, this is, you know, from Australia, this is South African, this is, and so, you know, oh well this is a French.
Gary Arndt:Bordeaux.
Gary Arndt:So it's gotta be good, or it's expensive, therefore it has to be good.
Gary Arndt:And I remember, you know, I've had a hundred dollars bottles of wine and they were good, but they weren't necessarily the best wine I've ever had.
Gary Arndt:I think a lot of that isn't, you know, and I think that that goes into a lot of it too.
Gary Arndt:Like there are certain beers that I've heard people here talk about, you know, like.
Gary Arndt:Pliny the elder, and it's Pliny.
Allison Fleshman:We say Pliny,
Gary Arndt:but the, they achieve a legendary status.
Gary Arndt:And when you try it, it's like, well, I have to like it.
Gary Arndt:'cause it's, everyone likes it.
Gary Arndt:It has to, this is right, right.
Gary Arndt:That, that's called normative social influence.
Gary Arndt:Yeah.
Gary Arndt:I've called the Citizen Cain Effect.
Gary Arndt:Yeah.
Gary Arndt:That's funny.
Gary Arndt:Yep.
Gary Arndt:Same thing.
Gary Arndt:Or it could be the opposite.
Gary Arndt:Well, with Citizen Cain Effect, it's like everyone thought, oh, it's the greatest movie ever.
Gary Arndt:And then a lot of people watch it.
Gary Arndt:It's like, well, it's not the greatest movie I've ever seen.
Gary Arndt:That's what
Allison Fleshman:I think about The Godfather.
Gary Arndt:Sacrilege.
Gary Arndt:We could godfather's a fine movie, but Right.
Gary Arndt:I
Allison Fleshman:just, I knew all the puns and all the jokes and then I saw it.
Allison Fleshman:It's decal
Gary Arndt:survey has come out ever since 19.
Gary Arndt:That's fair.
Gary Arndt:50 whatever.
Gary Arndt:And like Citizen Kane has been number one on all but two of them.
Gary Arndt:Yep.
Gary Arndt:But it's not that everyone thinks Citizen Kane is the best movie.
Gary Arndt:It's that more people think it is a very good movie.
Gary Arndt:generally not necessarily the best.
Gary Arndt:And, but when people see it and they go, well, this, this doesn't, you know, change my world, it's, it's good, but it's not great.
Gary Arndt:And I guess I'm talking about two different things.
Gary Arndt:One is the expectation of like, you know, this has been so highly touted that if I don't like it, maybe there's something wrong with me.
Allison Fleshman:Oh, oh, I see.
Allison Fleshman:Well, 1, 1, 1.
Eric Eastman:Oh, go ahead.
Allison Fleshman:Oh, no, I was just gonna say, so, I did a quick Google search because this is the kind of podcast we're doing today.
Allison Fleshman:And for top beer ever sold and it's Arctic flavored beer, which is Sup's Arctic Ale.
Allison Fleshman:he who gets the title for the most expensive bottle of beer in the world, a record amount of $503,300 was offered for a light ale at an auction.
Allison Fleshman:The taste properties of the beer turned out to be nothing to do with it.
Allison Fleshman:The history of the Arctic beer attracted the attention of collectors.
Allison Fleshman:Apparently, the ale was brewed in 1852 for a polar expedition and was salvaged from some, downed, Some sort of ship that was wrecked somewhere in the Arctic.
Allison Fleshman:Oh, I've heard about
Gary Arndt:this.
Gary Arndt:was this found in the Baltic Sea?
Allison Fleshman:Maybe
Gary Arndt:like off Sweden.
Allison Fleshman:1854.
Allison Fleshman:Found the North.
Allison Fleshman:Let's see, because I think they did a
Gary Arndt:chemical analysis on the beer to try to recreate it
Allison Fleshman:from London to the Canadian Arctic in 1845 to find the northwest passage between the Atlantic and the Pacific oceans.
Allison Fleshman:This is the purpose of the expedition.
Allison Fleshman:Shortly before the departure of the search expedition, Belcher used the London Brewer, Samuel Ssop, to brew a special batch of Ale.
Allison Fleshman:It was bought by a collector in Oklahoma for 304,000.
Allison Fleshman:And then that's
Gary Arndt:more a historical object than a, no one's drinking that
Allison Fleshman:I don't believe so, no.
Allison Fleshman:But still.
Allison Fleshman:You said that there's not over a hundred dollars bottle of beer.
Allison Fleshman:And I said counter
Gary Arndt:to that.
Gary Arndt:No one would drink that and expect like there's been a bottle of wine that was owned by Thomas Jefferson that sold for like a million dollars.
Gary Arndt:That's fair.
Gary Arndt:But no one's buying that because they're not gonna pop it open and think this is a great bottle of wine.
Gary Arndt:But
Allison Fleshman:wouldn't that be lovely if that also was the point of like it was actually worth the value of the taste.
Allison Fleshman:Maybe not yet.
Allison Fleshman:I think there's a, I got a big eye roll from Gary.
Allison Fleshman:I understand.
Allison Fleshman:I think there's a point important at which
Gary Arndt:case it's not gonna,
Allison Fleshman:I'd like to think that molecules have value too, but I guess it's all the history that matters.
Joel Hermansan:Okay.
Joel Hermansan:What about Fiji Water?
Joel Hermansan:I love that stuff.
Joel Hermansan:I've, no, this is a great, this is a great example.
Joel Hermansan:It's 'cause it's in a square
Allison Fleshman:bottle, isn't it?
Allison Fleshman:It's in a square
Eric Eastman:bottle.
Eric Eastman:In a square bottle that's heavier than any other water bottle.
Eric Eastman:That's why you like it.
Joel Hermansan:And I, I maybe I've convinced myself Sure.
Joel Hermansan:That it tastes better than other water.
Joel Hermansan:Absolutely.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:I think if I did, based on, you know, our earlier taste test experience in which I was, and thank you for not saying what I was, I was oh, for six.
Joel Hermansan:Oh, wow.
Joel Hermansan:I would never
Eric Eastman:say that.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Eric Eastman:Do you know what Avion is spelled backwards.
Eric Eastman:Naive.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Eric Eastman:But I,
Joel Hermansan:I I, the normative reference, I I totally agree.
Joel Hermansan:Normative social influence.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:Yep.
Joel Hermansan:But I have totally convinced myself, 'cause I, I always view it like, oh, I got a really hard day.
Joel Hermansan:I'm gonna treat myself to a Fiji water.
Joel Hermansan:And you get that square bottle and it's like three times What's so heavy?
Joel Hermansan:The other water is, yeah.
Joel Hermansan:Don't you complain
Allison Fleshman:about certain other members of your household enjoying coffee at higher exorbitant prices?
Allison Fleshman:Yeah, but
Joel Hermansan:we're talking about, first of all, this happens like once every five years.
Joel Hermansan:Okay.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:This is not a common occurrence,
Allison Fleshman:is it Cornal?
Allison Fleshman:Is that what that is?
Allison Fleshman:But
Joel Hermansan:I, I, I have convinced myself that that water is so much better than than other water.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:And I don't think it, it probably isn't.
Joel Hermansan:This reminds me of No, it's
Eric Eastman:not.
Eric Eastman:It's not.
Eric Eastman:No.
Eric Eastman:No, it's tap, not it's tap water from Kenosha.
Eric Eastman:It doesn't matter.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:I am completely, well, probably thanks to
Allison Fleshman:the northeast Wisconsin Land Trust where they have purified the water.
Allison Fleshman:Oh goodness.
Allison Fleshman:That's probably where, yeah.
Allison Fleshman:You know, they're getting this really fancy water from, as someone who's
Gary Arndt:been to Fiji, it's just water.
Eric Eastman:It's just water.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Eric Eastman:Like to get back to the normative social influence that Gary had been chatting about a little bit, like very briefly, when people walk in.
Eric Eastman:Tolemans and your bartending, Joel, and you're like 5, 4, 7, 2 or three of us will be like, yeah, having five four sevens as well.
Eric Eastman:Awesome.
Eric Eastman:Delicious, wonderful.
Eric Eastman:Right?
Eric Eastman:And right there you can share with them what the flavor is.
Eric Eastman:That would be informational social influence.
Eric Eastman:Right?
Eric Eastman:Or they can have a little bit of exerted pressure on them.
Eric Eastman:Where myself and Christophe and maybe several others are saying, I'm having a 5, 4, 7 too.
Eric Eastman:I'm having 5, 4, 7 as well.
Eric Eastman:Mm-hmm.
Eric Eastman:And then all of a sudden it becomes the norm and it's like, all right.
Eric Eastman:And then you have Gary who's gonna buck the norm no matter what.
Eric Eastman:Right.
Eric Eastman:Gary?
Eric Eastman:Pretty much.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Eric Eastman:If somebody says that it's black, you're gonna say it's purple.
Eric Eastman:Okay.
Eric Eastman:Very good.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Eric Eastman:And so people, but most people.
Eric Eastman:Minus Gary are going to be heavily influenced by the norming of others.
Eric Eastman:And that's going to influence, and this is what's super cool as well.
Eric Eastman:So I take a sip of 5, 4, 7, and somebody watches me drink 5, 4, 7 and I take a sip of it and I make that face like.
Eric Eastman:Holy cow, this is so good.
Eric Eastman:They look at me and they see that in their mind.
Eric Eastman:They have these mirror neurons in their frontal lobe.
Eric Eastman:They are experiencing the same thing that I am.
Eric Eastman:They are actually participating in that experience with me.
Eric Eastman:So when they see me drink that and they watch me drink that, their brain is doing the exact same thing.
Eric Eastman:So when they take a sip of it, they're much more likely to.
Eric Eastman:Love the beer.
Allison Fleshman:So we've had some fun.
Allison Fleshman:Bobby and I will ever so, or once in a while we'll sit in the beer garden and kind of hide away.
Allison Fleshman:It's really hard for Bobby and I to hide when we're here.
Allison Fleshman:people come up to us, which we love talking and everything.
Allison Fleshman:you're
Joel Hermansan:not that tall, so we're not that tall.
Joel Hermansan:So seeing Bobby, but yeah, well, he's
Allison Fleshman:not that tall either.
Allison Fleshman:But anyway, but every once in a while we can just kind of sit in the corner and just watch.
Allison Fleshman:And we noticed, this was last summer, we had our cherry cider and we'd started putting it, instead of the non-IT glasses, we were putting 'em in the pilsner glasses, which they really show off a lot more.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:And it was interesting.
Allison Fleshman:So you would see someone walk out with one, and then you'd see a couple heads turn, and then all of a sudden when the next group went in, they would come out with one.
Allison Fleshman:And it, we, it was just like a, a kind of multiplicity going on of like, it, it, people noticed and they're like, oh, that's a pretty beer.
Allison Fleshman:Right?
Allison Fleshman:And so they went and got their own
Eric Eastman:and, and that made that, that was my second point, way back when.
Eric Eastman:Mm. when we were talking about how important taste is.
Allison Fleshman:There you go.
Allison Fleshman:And,
Eric Eastman:and my second point was dealing with sensory interaction.
Eric Eastman:Mm-hmm.
Eric Eastman:And dealing with normative social influence, but that sensory interaction of seeing visually.
Eric Eastman:That sort of the, the color, the foam.
Eric Eastman:And you like the foam molecules?
Eric Eastman:Yes.
Eric Eastman:I levels, I like the foam Look, I have a relative who actually does photography for beer.
Eric Eastman:And other spirits and how important it is to have the correct amount of foam present to get people that want to.
Eric Eastman:Absolutely.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Eric Eastman:Right.
Eric Eastman:So it that's, that's super in Interesting how big sensory interaction plays a role.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Eric Eastman:Look at that lace and how important that is.
Eric Eastman:And I see that you have a curved glass.
Eric Eastman:Mm-hmm.
Eric Eastman:And a curved glass is gonna lead people to actually drink faster.
Eric Eastman:I like this.
Eric Eastman:So psychological.
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Eric Eastman:Well and what's
Allison Fleshman:funny is I put Chapstick on earlier because it's still cold out.
Allison Fleshman:Well, it's not cold outside today.
Allison Fleshman:But I've only got lacing on one side because that's where my Chapstick was.
Gary Arndt:Oh.
Gary Arndt:If you curve it enough, you just get a funnel and that'll get people to drink really fast.
Gary Arndt:I did that in college a lot.
Gary Arndt:No beer funnels here.
Gary Arndt:Alright, do we have any more questions for the shrink of drink?
Joel Hermansan:Oh, that is such a great name.
Joel Hermansan:It is.
Joel Hermansan:Well, we're gonna have him back on.
Joel Hermansan:So, no, I, there's a reason
Gary Arndt:why I'm not susceptible to peer pressure.
Gary Arndt:I have no peers.
Gary Arndt:Aw, nobody is equal to you,
Eric Eastman:Gary.
Eric Eastman:That's what you meant, right?
Eric Eastman:Yeah.
Gary Arndt:So that concludes this episode of respecting the Beer.
Gary Arndt:Make sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast player so you never miss an episode.
Gary Arndt:Join the Facebook group to get everything between the episodes and the Patreon page where we do have things that don't appear on the main podcast.
Gary Arndt:And until next time, please remember to respect the beer.
