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Episode 3

And They Started a Brewery!

Bobby and Allison share the origins of McFleshmans Brewing Co; from initial investors to surviving the pandemic. They recall the process of renovating a 100 year old building, developing flagship beers, and creating a bar experience for everyone.

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--

CREDITS

Hosts:

Bobby Fleshman

Allison McCoy-Fleshman

Gary Ardnt

Music by Sarah Lynn Huss

Recorded & Produced by David Kalsow

Brought to you by McFleshman's Brewing Co

Transcript
Gary Ardnt:

Welcome to the respecting the beer podcast.

Gary Ardnt:

My name is Gary Ardnt and once again, I am with Bobby Fleshman

Gary Ardnt:

and Alison McCoy Fleshman.

Gary Ardnt:

So we've talked a little bit about the origin story, how you got started in

Gary Ardnt:

beer, your training in beer, your home brewing, you went to a brewing program,

Gary Ardnt:

you became a master brewer, and then you moved to this place that you'd never been

Gary Ardnt:

to before, Appleton, Wisconsin, and you make the decision to start a brewery.

Gary Ardnt:

There's probably people out there who, who they like beer, their

Gary Ardnt:

home brewers, and maybe they have dreams of opening a brewery.

Gary Ardnt:

What was that process like?

Gary Ardnt:

And what did you have to go through?

Gary Ardnt:

Because, you know, we've been, we were talking before that a lot of people

Gary Ardnt:

that get into this are kind of naive as to what is actually involved in it.

Gary Ardnt:

What, what was the process like?

Gary Ardnt:

Right.

Gary Ardnt:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Scary.

Gary Ardnt:

First of all, before we get started,

Bobby Fleshman:

I want to, I want to say something about Master Brewer.

Bobby Fleshman:

I think it's something like 15 years in the industry before you can sit

Bobby Fleshman:

for that particular examination.

Bobby Fleshman:

And there's only Dan Carey in the state of Wisconsin with that.

Bobby Fleshman:

So I just want to make.

Bobby Fleshman:

And Allison may say, I will accept it, but I just wanna make sure that

Bobby Fleshman:

lexicon is sort of, there's a master brewer's program and then there's a

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: master brewer.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yes.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

There's some technical.

Bobby Fleshman:

No.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah, we started a brewery.

Bobby Fleshman:

What, how did it feel?

Bobby Fleshman:

Where do we begin?

Bobby Fleshman:

Go.

Bobby Fleshman:

So I, I was picking up all these pieces, my whole life,

Bobby Fleshman:

ultimately became this brewery, but there was a bunch of gaps as much as

Bobby Fleshman:

I was a master of all trades master or a jack of all trade master of none.

Bobby Fleshman:

It, I didn't, I mentioned the previous episode, I had a fast

Bobby Fleshman:

track biology and chemistry.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then when we got here and decided to open this place, we had

Bobby Fleshman:

to we had to decide on a location.

Bobby Fleshman:

and then we had to decide on how to get money to do anything with said location.

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh my gosh.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Anything's shiny is expensive.

Bobby Fleshman:

And so it's, it's so expensive to start a brewery

Bobby Fleshman:

to find equipment.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: So expensive.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah, well it goes on and on.

Bobby Fleshman:

So let's, let's start with that.

Bobby Fleshman:

I had to get money and, and half of the money, part, a portion of the money

Bobby Fleshman:

came from our respective families.

Bobby Fleshman:

They, they were, I will say they, they were pretty easy sell, sell on this.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah, they had each family had worked and had,

Bobby Fleshman:

accrued some, some funds to help us out.

Bobby Fleshman:

And they, I mean, we all believed in Bobby, I mean, and stop, he was

Bobby Fleshman:

kind of the visionary behind it all.

Bobby Fleshman:

And so they invested and from that we were able to buy this building.

Bobby Fleshman:

Actually this building came up for sale, Appleton Beer Factory

Bobby Fleshman:

was originally going to buy this building before they bought theirs.

Bobby Fleshman:

and so it had been vacant for many years and they, it was actually Leah Fogel has

Bobby Fleshman:

said, Hey, by the way, I think you should ask about buying that one behind us.

Bobby Fleshman:

And they had thought about this building for

Bobby Fleshman:

their original plans for it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: But anyway, and so we inquired with the with the owner, and

Bobby Fleshman:

we're able to buy the building outright with the help of both of our parents.

Bobby Fleshman:

And

Bobby Fleshman:

it was just a shell.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

At that point.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: But then.

Gary Ardnt:

So this is like a hundred year old building, roughly?

Gary Ardnt:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah.

Gary Ardnt:

Built in 1921.

Gary Ardnt:

It was originally Valley Dairy.

Gary Ardnt:

products, dairy company.

Gary Ardnt:

And what was fun is during renovations and we gutted it.

Gary Ardnt:

There's a wonderful picture that we have hanging in the tap room and you

Gary Ardnt:

can see it where Bobby and I, oh, you were so mad that day too, because

Gary Ardnt:

I wanted to take a picture of us.

Gary Ardnt:

And you're like, we don't have time for a picture.

Gary Ardnt:

I was always documenting everything.

Gary Ardnt:

Anyway, we're just standing in this gutted shell and this is

Gary Ardnt:

before we'd lowered the floor.

Gary Ardnt:

But we just snapped this picture and to see what it was when we bought it.

Gary Ardnt:

It is, it's just mind blowing how much work we put in.

Gary Ardnt:

But this building, when we were doing renovations, we knew it was a dairy

Gary Ardnt:

company, but we actually found a whole bunch of relics from the dairy

Gary Ardnt:

company, but then there were these walls that were this cork, because

Gary Ardnt:

at the time that was the insulation that they used and we found ice

Bobby Fleshman:

blocks off of Lake Michigan to cool it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: And we found all these dairy caps that they would

Bobby Fleshman:

have used for the milk bottles.

Bobby Fleshman:

It was really fun, you know, finding in the history of the building

Bobby Fleshman:

and it became a brewery in 1933.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: And in our tap room, you can see a a list of all the

Bobby Fleshman:

different things this building has been.

Bobby Fleshman:

And there's gotta be about 25 different businesses have been in this building

Bobby Fleshman:

and we're the ninth beer related business.

Bobby Fleshman:

that has been here.

Bobby Fleshman:

We didn't know any of that moving in.

Bobby Fleshman:

So we had, so we, we bought it and it became our collateral

Bobby Fleshman:

on a loan that allowed us to actually do something with it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: And the part about the loan, Bobby's sister having

Bobby Fleshman:

been her previous job before she moved her family up from Oklahoma

Bobby Fleshman:

to start the brewery with us.

Bobby Fleshman:

She was a big fan.

Bobby Fleshman:

Bank financer person.

Bobby Fleshman:

So she worked at a bank and so she kind of knew a lot of the

Bobby Fleshman:

ins and outs of loans and such.

Gary Ardnt:

And so you bought the building first, right?

Gary Ardnt:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yep.

Gary Ardnt:

And then we use that as collateral for getting the loan.

Gary Ardnt:

And then we I mean, we put our houses on as collateral.

Gary Ardnt:

I mean, we did, we, Both families put in everything.

Gary Ardnt:

And now there are three families involved.

Gary Ardnt:

Bobby's sister's family, your parents and then us.

Gary Ardnt:

And did just like to give some percentages when you raise

Gary Ardnt:

money or the money, how much of it went towards, say, renovating the

Gary Ardnt:

building versus all the equipment in the back to actually brew beer.

Gary Ardnt:

On a

Bobby Fleshman:

brewery, you know, every business is different.

Bobby Fleshman:

I would say that probably 25 to 30 percent goes toward a little, let's speak to

Bobby Fleshman:

this business because every evening.

Bobby Fleshman:

We probably did 25 to 30 percent on equipment overall, and then the building

Bobby Fleshman:

overall plus renovation was probably 40 percent and then the soft costs.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Oh my gosh, the soft costs.

Bobby Fleshman:

So you can imagine you

Bobby Fleshman:

have, you have attorneys and inspectors and engineers

Bobby Fleshman:

and it, in banking fees and all that.

Bobby Fleshman:

On and on and on.

Bobby Fleshman:

This is where

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Bobby's sister was really helpful.

Bobby Fleshman:

She had that insider information about like all that soft costs.

Bobby Fleshman:

And so that's where it's like everything shiny is expensive,

Bobby Fleshman:

but people are just expensive.

Bobby Fleshman:

So that's all about all the different things that we had to pay for.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then that, that extra 15 percent is that quote runway.

Bobby Fleshman:

And it's like anything else that.

Bobby Fleshman:

The, if you don't hear anything else and you think about opening a brewery

Bobby Fleshman:

and you're listening to this podcast is a know that it will take you four times

Bobby Fleshman:

as long and costs four times as much.

Bobby Fleshman:

I I'm going to, there should be a pause there to make sure they hear that.

Bobby Fleshman:

It'll take more four times as many years off your life.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then when you sprinkle

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: in a pandemic in the middle of it, that's in the

Bobby Fleshman:

operation phase.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: That's eight times more.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'm not complaining.

Bobby Fleshman:

I love challenge, but holy smokes.

Bobby Fleshman:

I, I may have another life yet in consulting to open

Bobby Fleshman:

breweries because I know so much.

Gary Ardnt:

So what was the day that the brewery open?

Gary Ardnt:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: May 18th,

Bobby Fleshman:

18th, 2019 was the biggest day.

Bobby Fleshman:

It was the craft beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

It was actually May 18th, but it, it was, we'd signed up for

Bobby Fleshman:

the craft beer walk sponsored by, Appleton downtown incorporated.

Bobby Fleshman:

where folks can go from a restaurant or bar or brewery spot to spot.

Bobby Fleshman:

And just try these different craft beers.

Bobby Fleshman:

And so we

Bobby Fleshman:

put a flag on, we put a pin on the calendar.

Bobby Fleshman:

We did.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: We were like, all right, we will be open by then.

Bobby Fleshman:

And it was a race to the finish line to get opened.

Bobby Fleshman:

but we did it.

Bobby Fleshman:

We weren't ready,

Bobby Fleshman:

but we were never going to be ready.

Bobby Fleshman:

We should have put the pin.

Bobby Fleshman:

We should have put that flag on the calendar a year before that.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: And we need to give shout out to two individuals.

Bobby Fleshman:

So we, we started this company, Bobby's family were invested and involved.

Bobby Fleshman:

His sister was running the business side.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then we had two friends of ours from Oklahoma.

Bobby Fleshman:

They moved up here, Shane Butner and Layla Kalper.

Bobby Fleshman:

And the four of us really, actually, I should say the,

Bobby Fleshman:

the, the four of you, you were

Bobby Fleshman:

doing something at this university.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah, that was the day job.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

but they, Shane was brewing with you.

Bobby Fleshman:

Layla was going to run our tap room.

Bobby Fleshman:

Cindy was going to run all the books.

Bobby Fleshman:

And so we kind of had those pieces in place.

Bobby Fleshman:

Four people doing 14 jobs.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

But, and all of us having no clue how to do any of them.

Bobby Fleshman:

The only thing I think we did know how to do is brew beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

And we actually couldn't even brew beer on site because we ran out

Bobby Fleshman:

of money and had to open quickly.

Bobby Fleshman:

Speaking.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Speaking of, relationships, we were brewing our beer at the Appleton beer

Bobby Fleshman:

factory for the first nine months as I was building out all the production.

Bobby Fleshman:

equipment.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah, we had to get it open.

Bobby Fleshman:

So, so we just, we just put a door that separates from the, from the production

Bobby Fleshman:

side of the business and anyone that was here that first several months that

Bobby Fleshman:

we were open, we'll remember there was this beautiful door at the end of the

Bobby Fleshman:

hallway and behind it was a cluster.

Bobby Fleshman:

It was a construction zone.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

We were, we were trying to get that done piece wise.

Bobby Fleshman:

We're sitting now in the prohibition room, which is the upstairs of the

Bobby Fleshman:

brewery, and that came, in another phase.

Bobby Fleshman:

So we were just built, we were, yeah, we finished the, we were building

Bobby Fleshman:

the plane while we were flying it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Mm-Hmm.

Bobby Fleshman:

. We were, we finished the brewery or finished the prohibition room

Bobby Fleshman:

when I was eight months pregnant.

Bobby Fleshman:

'cause I remember painting the walls and getting my belly

Bobby Fleshman:

always like in the, in the paint.

Bobby Fleshman:

At the time,

Gary Ardnt:

so when you opened the doors, how many different

Gary Ardnt:

beers did you have available?

Gary Ardnt:

Four.

Gary Ardnt:

Four.

Bobby Fleshman:

They were a tall mast.

Bobby Fleshman:

They were, there was our English IPA.

Bobby Fleshman:

They were our English mild.

Bobby Fleshman:

They were pirates Cove and they were a public house pint.

Bobby Fleshman:

So we had an Irish stout and we had a beer named after the building that burned

Bobby Fleshman:

down next door to us in the eighties.

Bobby Fleshman:

We'll talk about pirates Cove later.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'm sure.

Bobby Fleshman:

yeah, that was our first four and we had 16 lines.

Bobby Fleshman:

So the, a lot of them were empty and there may have been a couple of guest taps

Bobby Fleshman:

that appeared throughout the week, but yeah, and the cooler broke the first day

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Oh I remember that

Bobby Fleshman:

busiest day of the year for most people that were in the

Bobby Fleshman:

bar scene, we decided we'd open on it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: And we'd actually, we had done a soft opening the day

Bobby Fleshman:

before we'd invited a bunch of Lawrence faculty who, I mean, and academics are

Bobby Fleshman:

fantastic because you say, okay, we're going to give you some discounted tickets.

Bobby Fleshman:

Beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

You're going to help us out.

Bobby Fleshman:

but you're also going to fill out these little info cards and they are so honest.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's wonderful.

Bobby Fleshman:

It was the fourth time we did four soft

Bobby Fleshman:

openings throughout construction.

Bobby Fleshman:

Every time we would get to what we call a milestone you can translate that as reason

Bobby Fleshman:

to drink, take a break from construction.

Bobby Fleshman:

We would have Lawrence come down and do a soft opening with us.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: And that was really helpful because

Bobby Fleshman:

it was just such long hours.

Bobby Fleshman:

It was such hard work that to have people.

Bobby Fleshman:

Like in the brewery and even, even if there was just construction debris

Bobby Fleshman:

everywhere just have people there.

Bobby Fleshman:

And for us to recognize like what we are still working towards, that

Bobby Fleshman:

was the motivating lift we needed.

Bobby Fleshman:

I think at times.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

And you know, let's not, let's not talk about how hard it was completely.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's, it's something a lot of people never get to experience is the reward

Bobby Fleshman:

of their vision coming into reality.

Bobby Fleshman:

So that is worth it.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's that's, that's the motto and the mantra of my life is being

Bobby Fleshman:

able to make vision into reality.

Gary Ardnt:

How, I assume that when you opened, you were, you were

Gary Ardnt:

basically just serving beer on tap.

Gary Ardnt:

At first.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Right.

Bobby Fleshman:

We had, maybe we had growlers, but maybe not even that.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

There was no to go options.

Bobby Fleshman:

but we had the two cast condition Dale.

Bobby Fleshman:

So the, the beer engines were up and running

Bobby Fleshman:

four beer engines, but two in use.

Bobby Fleshman:

So it took a while even before the second two came into use.

Bobby Fleshman:

How did you survive the pandemic?

Bobby Fleshman:

Ever fast forwarding, but not too far.

Bobby Fleshman:

It was 18 months.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: That question makes it sound like that.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's over.

Gary Ardnt:

This was no, but you're here, so we're still open.

Gary Ardnt:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: yeah,

Gary Ardnt:

maybe not the worst time.

Gary Ardnt:

You, you, so you opened in 2018 could have been worse, but it probably

Gary Ardnt:

wasn't optimal, not optimal because.

Gary Ardnt:

Not too long after the pandemic hits, people can't come into the bar.

Gary Ardnt:

Are you selling bottles and cans at this point?

Gary Ardnt:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yes.

Bobby Fleshman:

Well, I think we're going to have to do a

Bobby Fleshman:

whole episode on this Sunday.

Bobby Fleshman:

We probably can, but

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

So we, we'd switched over to, we

Bobby Fleshman:

coincidentally, we started canning.

Bobby Fleshman:

about a month before the pandemic happened.

Bobby Fleshman:

And when I say we started canning, I don't mean that we got a

Bobby Fleshman:

canning machine and we started

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: a single canner.

Bobby Fleshman:

We had literally a home brewing setup.

Bobby Fleshman:

We had some, what we call beer guns and we would fill one can at a time.

Bobby Fleshman:

And we had this seamer that you could put the lid on it and you spun around it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Did the double seam, one can at a time.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then we put these, garage labels that would say whatever beer was inside it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Because we were starting to do some small batches, we had like a 30 gallon system we

Bobby Fleshman:

were starting to play with at that point.

Bobby Fleshman:

And

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: we wanted to increase options of to go,

Bobby Fleshman:

and those were new beers.

Bobby Fleshman:

We didn't want to go.

Bobby Fleshman:

We didn't have any marketing or graphics to work with at all back then.

Bobby Fleshman:

But people wanted to take these beers home.

Bobby Fleshman:

So we just had started doing that little that we know four weeks later,

Bobby Fleshman:

that's the only thing we would be able to be able to do to sell beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

So then that began, like I said, a very long, long, long period of time.

Bobby Fleshman:

But.

Bobby Fleshman:

not to go too far down that path.

Bobby Fleshman:

We were open 18 months when it happened, when the pandemic struck

Bobby Fleshman:

effectively, because the news was already coming in November and

Bobby Fleshman:

December of the, of, of eight of 19.

Bobby Fleshman:

If we, if we go back and look at that.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: And we knew, so we Lawrence knew

Bobby Fleshman:

that they were going to close.

Bobby Fleshman:

Or at least not have students come back.

Bobby Fleshman:

Before Evers came out and said, we need to like do absolute lockdown.

Bobby Fleshman:

I was using that information to kind of inform some of the choices that

Bobby Fleshman:

we were already as business owners, probably many

Bobby Fleshman:

other business owners thinking that 2020 is going to be rough.

Bobby Fleshman:

I don't know that anyone predicted this or that what it was, but we

Bobby Fleshman:

all knew that this is, this is something happening at the end of

Bobby Fleshman:

19 was making waves at that point.

Bobby Fleshman:

So, What am I?

Bobby Fleshman:

Where am I rambling off to now?

Bobby Fleshman:

I have no idea.

Bobby Fleshman:

COVID, COVID.

Bobby Fleshman:

Maybe I'm going through all those memories in my head.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: It's traumatic, but no, I, I, we, we learned a lot

Bobby Fleshman:

and it, we, we had to change our business model almost overnight.

Bobby Fleshman:

And so I think that is, it's, it changed the fate of the company.

Bobby Fleshman:

But.

Bobby Fleshman:

COVID.

Bobby Fleshman:

COVID.

Bobby Fleshman:

We're also optimists.

Bobby Fleshman:

I think it changed it in a good way.

Bobby Fleshman:

We had to learn how to do that, learn how to distribute overnight.

Bobby Fleshman:

and it, it, it.

Bobby Fleshman:

It flipped it, the business plan.

Bobby Fleshman:

I started selling beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

So not only did we lose all the sales in our tap room overnight and it

Bobby Fleshman:

became just to go only, and then they started to soften that over time.

Bobby Fleshman:

But also we lost all of our restaurants.

Bobby Fleshman:

We did have a couple of accounts out there that we were selling beer to in

Bobby Fleshman:

kegs and of course they're gone now.

Bobby Fleshman:

Cause they're not selling beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

So whatever Avenue we had was, was slam shot.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: We even made a little COVID door where it is.

Bobby Fleshman:

What's the little flap down right outside the tap.

Bobby Fleshman:

We're actually right behind the bar.

Bobby Fleshman:

So people could like drive up and you can like, get your beer handed to you.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yep.

Bobby Fleshman:

That door is still there.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's still there.

Bobby Fleshman:

Nicknamed the COVID door.

Bobby Fleshman:

It may or may not be the way that we share beers with the beer

Bobby Fleshman:

factory across the street, but today.

Bobby Fleshman:

It made us a distribution brewery earlier than we had hoped that is

Bobby Fleshman:

we, we, we got out in throughout the state of Wisconsin selling.

Bobby Fleshman:

I did.

Bobby Fleshman:

I was selling beer in 16 counties myself out of a 2, 000 minivan that

Bobby Fleshman:

I still have and we paid for it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh my gosh.

Bobby Fleshman:

20 times over.

Bobby Fleshman:

By the way, brewers, if you're out there listening, you're like, how do I do this?

Bobby Fleshman:

Buy a minivan.

Bobby Fleshman:

Don't spend more than 2, 000.

Bobby Fleshman:

You can put 12, 000.

Bobby Fleshman:

To 14 half barrels in the back of it and have low to ground access.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: He has a personal relationship with this minivan.

Bobby Fleshman:

Got to get over your,

Bobby Fleshman:

get over your masculinity.

Bobby Fleshman:

It is the thing to have to deliver beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

that's built for eight people.

Bobby Fleshman:

And a ridiculous amount of weight.

Bobby Fleshman:

Also full sheets of plywood.

Bobby Fleshman:

You can make the guy next to you.

Bobby Fleshman:

Embarrassed rule here that

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: we're not allowed to mention wood or any sort of like,

Bobby Fleshman:

especially like Oak in front of Bobby, or he'll start talking about wood.

Bobby Fleshman:

That mini van got us through A lot of COVID honestly.

Bobby Fleshman:

So I was selling beer everywhere because the bars were starting to open.

Bobby Fleshman:

I was starting to trickle out kegs here and there.

Bobby Fleshman:

And at the end of the day, when the dust settled, we then all of a

Bobby Fleshman:

sudden we were open again, you know, we were at, let's say 60 percent of

Bobby Fleshman:

where we were before the pandemic struck, but now we are in 16 counties.

Bobby Fleshman:

And so this is a new business plan and there's a, there's a picture of.

Bobby Fleshman:

I put on my own page, Facebook page, and it just shows business plan 2.

Bobby Fleshman:

0 and the people that my friends, I think that's my most liked picture of all time.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'm not sure if they just, Like to see someone in that sort of agony, having to

Bobby Fleshman:

repeat all of this all over again, or they just saw the potential and, but, yeah,

Bobby Fleshman:

people's resonated with how resilient we were and how resolved we were.

Gary Ardnt:

Was it kind of a blessing in disguise?

Gary Ardnt:

I mean, obviously the process sucked, but at the end of it, it's like,

Gary Ardnt:

okay, now we're doing this thing that we never would have done before.

Bobby Fleshman:

I can't answer that because I know that at the end of

Bobby Fleshman:

19, our trajectory was so, it was ramping up so fast that I, I kind

Bobby Fleshman:

of wish we could have seen where that was going in our own space.

Bobby Fleshman:

It might've followed our, our, the business plan, which we haven't

Bobby Fleshman:

even really talked about it, but, it might've followed it really to

Bobby Fleshman:

the, the letter as much as you can.

Bobby Fleshman:

And they say you never follow your business plan, but I think

Bobby Fleshman:

we might, might've done it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

We had to, because we.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

We're going to do distribution later.

Bobby Fleshman:

We were going to really focus on the tap room and the beer garden first.

Bobby Fleshman:

And that really didn't get to become what it is now until after the pandemic.

Bobby Fleshman:

And that would have flipped.

Bobby Fleshman:

We would have been able to invest a lot more time in the, just the, the.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

At McFleshman's experience.

Bobby Fleshman:

But the pandemic stopped that.

Bobby Fleshman:

So I think, yes, I mean, we're optimists.

Bobby Fleshman:

So of course, yes, it was, you know, we're better because of it, but I think

Bobby Fleshman:

we're also better because we learned how to pivot and re I know, and really think

Bobby Fleshman:

about what What choices are we making now?

Bobby Fleshman:

Because at that point, our employees, you know, paychecks were on the line

Bobby Fleshman:

because nothing was coming in unless we figured out how to do something quick.

Bobby Fleshman:

I should say that we were so successful in 2020.

Bobby Fleshman:

We, oh, this is frustrating.

Bobby Fleshman:

This is on, this is on, and I take credit for this 'cause I was able

Bobby Fleshman:

to get this beer somewhere and get it sold that we made more money in

Bobby Fleshman:

20 than we made in 19th, which for a startup isn't necessarily something

Bobby Fleshman:

to brag about, but that's gross.

Bobby Fleshman:

But it was soft, net gross.

Bobby Fleshman:

And therefore, if you're a business owner, you probably know that you

Bobby Fleshman:

didn't receive a lot of the benefits because they looked at gross revenue.

Bobby Fleshman:

So it was a dagger to the heart.

Bobby Fleshman:

So a lot of deductions,

Gary Ardnt:

I know a lot of businesses that did not grow at all.

Gary Ardnt:

And because I came from the travel space, they literally went to zero.

Gary Ardnt:

a hard, hard zero.

Gary Ardnt:

Yeah.

Gary Ardnt:

And some of them never survived.

Gary Ardnt:

So that.

Gary Ardnt:

You know, even if there's an asterisk next to it is really not bad at all.

Bobby Fleshman:

And it gave us, so that that's real growth.

Bobby Fleshman:

That's not bolstered by any sort of government programs.

Bobby Fleshman:

So we knew we had something.

Bobby Fleshman:

And so we just kept going with that momentum and growing now we're in

Bobby Fleshman:

45 counties and we're thinking about second tap rooms and selling the

Bobby Fleshman:

business of beer and conversation.

Bobby Fleshman:

And all of that came from these months of the early, in early 2020.

Gary Ardnt:

I remember when I started my business, my first business,

Gary Ardnt:

you go through different phases.

Gary Ardnt:

There's a phase where it's just like you, right?

Gary Ardnt:

And then you hire some people and then it gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

Gary Ardnt:

And your role changes that there's a reason why very large there, there are

Gary Ardnt:

people who are very good at running big companies and there are people

Gary Ardnt:

that are very good at startups and they're not necessarily the same person.

Gary Ardnt:

So the path you've taken from when you've opened the door.

Gary Ardnt:

Now, almost six years ago to today, are you finding that the business

Gary Ardnt:

has changed dramatically in your roles and what you're doing?

Gary Ardnt:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yes.

Gary Ardnt:

I know.

Gary Ardnt:

Yes.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yes.

Bobby Fleshman:

But I'm glad it has because I'm not going to live forever and I'm

Bobby Fleshman:

going to have to change regardless.

Bobby Fleshman:

So it's just forcing me to figure out how does succession look and

Bobby Fleshman:

how does, you know, how do, how do our, employees become owners.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Well, and one of the hard parts about the startup is

Bobby Fleshman:

that, well, like take the four of you, you, Shane, Leland, Cindy, you all had

Bobby Fleshman:

to figure out what hat to actually wear.

Bobby Fleshman:

Like we didn't really have job descriptions.

Bobby Fleshman:

We kind of knew what lane everyone was supposed to be in, but in

Bobby Fleshman:

terms of your day to day activity, make it up as you go along, figure

Bobby Fleshman:

out the problem and go solve it.

Bobby Fleshman:

And make money while you're doing it, please.

Bobby Fleshman:

And so it, it was really hard for folks to adjust to what they were supposed to do.

Bobby Fleshman:

And it took us a while.

Bobby Fleshman:

It took Bobby a while, I think, but he became really good at recognizing

Bobby Fleshman:

when we needed to create a job.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then he'd go make that job, like distribution, for example, going around.

Bobby Fleshman:

and selling the beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then he's like, okay, I've now made this job.

Bobby Fleshman:

I have these tasks.

Bobby Fleshman:

Now let's go hire someone that can fill that role.

Bobby Fleshman:

And he just kept moving throughout the brewery and doing that.

Bobby Fleshman:

Exactly how it's gone.

Bobby Fleshman:

I built a tap room, literally built a tap room.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then I put someone in place.

Bobby Fleshman:

This person also helped build that tap room.

Bobby Fleshman:

But what I'm getting at is, built that job.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then I go behind that door.

Bobby Fleshman:

I talked about it and I start to build this production area out.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then I put a brewer in place there.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then I expand to this upstairs.

Bobby Fleshman:

Then I expand into sales and distribution and then future expansion plans on,

Bobby Fleshman:

on tap room, so on and so forth.

Bobby Fleshman:

She's right.

Bobby Fleshman:

Every time I'd make these moves from one department to another I'm laying

Bobby Fleshman:

the groundwork for that next person.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Gary Ardnt:

So when, in the first episode, We began talking about

Gary Ardnt:

beer and you were tasting beer and drinking beer and making beer.

Gary Ardnt:

Now we're talking about business.

Gary Ardnt:

Yes, we are.

Gary Ardnt:

Yeah.

Gary Ardnt:

We haven't mentioned beer.

Gary Ardnt:

Right.

Gary Ardnt:

So I want to go, I want to go back to this because I think I first came

Gary Ardnt:

here, it must've been early 2021.

Gary Ardnt:

I moved back to, to Appleton.

Gary Ardnt:

I was originally born here and the selection of beer here.

Gary Ardnt:

I think there's.

Gary Ardnt:

Maybe 16, 18 different, beers on the menu, all of which are brewed here.

Gary Ardnt:

Occasionally you may have a guest beer come in, make an

Gary Ardnt:

appearance, but it's, it's all here.

Gary Ardnt:

All very different.

Gary Ardnt:

You have, you know, Irish stouts, English ales, IPAs, loggers, sours Yeah.

Gary Ardnt:

I mean, it runs the gamut.

Gary Ardnt:

So now back as a brewer.

Gary Ardnt:

You're running the show and we talked, you know, a while back about

Gary Ardnt:

recipes versus when you started, you were following someone's recipe.

Gary Ardnt:

Now, are you making the recipes and what, you know, now are you in the mad

Gary Ardnt:

scientist phase where you have your laboratory and just get to do crazy stuff?

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

And, and our scale is, is sort of at that precipice.

Bobby Fleshman:

So we're, we're brewing enough and having to sell enough that you don't want to mess

Bobby Fleshman:

with it too much as a mad scientist, but.

Bobby Fleshman:

I do.

Bobby Fleshman:

Well, it's just like,

Gary Ardnt:

okay, I'm going to experiment.

Gary Ardnt:

We find a thing.

Gary Ardnt:

Yeah.

Gary Ardnt:

This works.

Gary Ardnt:

We'll nail that down.

Gary Ardnt:

Let's, let's not, you know, mess with this, but continue

Gary Ardnt:

to, she's pointing at me.

Gary Ardnt:

So

Gary Ardnt:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: I, Oh, the number of times.

Gary Ardnt:

So we, we nicknamed Bobby as Ahab and he goes after Moby Dick, which Moby

Gary Ardnt:

Dick for a long time was Tall Mast.

Gary Ardnt:

our English IPA, he kept tweaking it, just little bitty changes

Gary Ardnt:

here and there and yonder.

Gary Ardnt:

And our brewer at the time, Shane, just got so frustrated at him

Gary Ardnt:

that Shane would just be like, Oh, Bobby's messing with Tall Mast again.

Gary Ardnt:

I mean, there was many mornings where I would wake up and I hadn't even had my

Gary Ardnt:

coffee yet and all of a sudden there's a beer thrust in my face and he's like,

Gary Ardnt:

try this and I was like, God damn it.

Gary Ardnt:

No.

Gary Ardnt:

I think that he's never going to let it go.

Gary Ardnt:

Until, and he's never satisfied, I think.

Gary Ardnt:

Even our Pirate's Cove you've been messing with lately, even

Gary Ardnt:

though I'm very mad that you are.

Gary Ardnt:

Don't mess with Pirate's Cove.

Gary Ardnt:

Well,

Bobby Fleshman:

so you got, okay.

Bobby Fleshman:

I was listening to Dan Carey on his podcast.

Bobby Fleshman:

He's the, him and Deb carry on new Glarus.

Bobby Fleshman:

And he says, once you get a recipe that's, that sells laminated walk away.

Bobby Fleshman:

So I'm trying to take that into account.

Bobby Fleshman:

He's a very, very good brewer and he's a very smart guy.

Bobby Fleshman:

That said, I, I Not entirely sure I believe it because we deal

Bobby Fleshman:

with agricultural products and we have to make the same product

Bobby Fleshman:

every time there's variability.

Bobby Fleshman:

So you gotta like, you gotta roll with some curve balls.

Bobby Fleshman:

So what do you mean by laminated?

Bobby Fleshman:

Cause, but I won't go down that road there.

Bobby Fleshman:

Each brewer has to find, and each brewer has to find for themselves how

Bobby Fleshman:

much they want to be an, industrial type technical type, and how much

Bobby Fleshman:

they want to be an artistic type.

Bobby Fleshman:

And I don't know if I'm one more than the other.

Bobby Fleshman:

I feel like I'm constantly artistically thinking on one side, literally

Bobby Fleshman:

of my brain, but on the other.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: The other thing about when we first opened versus now

Bobby Fleshman:

is you and the other brewers that we've had on the team have gotten to know the

Bobby Fleshman:

equipment much more as well as I mean there is an execution that, you know,

Bobby Fleshman:

you want to be able to, you know, brew the same beer based on the recipe, but

Bobby Fleshman:

the system itself has efficiencies.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then we added our open fermenter, which really changed the game,

Bobby Fleshman:

especially with the English ales.

Bobby Fleshman:

And so I think it just, as you all have become more.

Bobby Fleshman:

skilled you know, you're, you're more practiced.

Bobby Fleshman:

I think our recipes have also reflected our brand

Bobby Fleshman:

better.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then it lets us make big global decisions better on as to which

Bobby Fleshman:

styles to pursue it to begin with.

Bobby Fleshman:

I was just thinking as we're talking, there's also a business brain, right?

Bobby Fleshman:

There's a technician, technician, and there's the artist.

Bobby Fleshman:

Now I've got a pie that's split three ways and I have this business brain and

Bobby Fleshman:

this business brain, has figured out how to use those other two parts of my brain.

Bobby Fleshman:

It, this is, Oh, okay.

Bobby Fleshman:

Well, , you know, you're gonna have to actually make some money and

Bobby Fleshman:

you're gonna have to put people's mind at ease so you don't have Shane

Bobby Fleshman:

complaining about tweaking your recipes.

Bobby Fleshman:

we need to get some mainstays that don't change and we need

Bobby Fleshman:

to make that more feasible.

Bobby Fleshman:

So it has economies of scale and it gets wider and it needs a wider audience.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Defending Shane a little bit, the, the beer

Bobby Fleshman:

was great and you are like, but if I just do this one thing Oh yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

I don't not throw Shane under the

Bobby Fleshman:

bus.

Bobby Fleshman:

No.

Bobby Fleshman:

Like how like everybody has to deal with that with me.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's true.

Bobby Fleshman:

Does making

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: great greater, is that wor, like, do you, why?

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah, that's, that's that artistic brain and, but see that business

Bobby Fleshman:

owner understands that you can eat both.

Bobby Fleshman:

You need that scale and you need that revenue and you need

Bobby Fleshman:

that marketing and so forth.

Bobby Fleshman:

But that art, but it also understands that the artistic brain is driving the brand.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Well, if you ever touch MSB, I will divorce you.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

If I would never tell her, I promise you, I will never tell you if I mess with MSB.

Gary Ardnt:

Okay.

Gary Ardnt:

So you went from beer enthusiast home brewer.

Gary Ardnt:

Student of beer, open the brewery.

Gary Ardnt:

I'd say your brewery now is, is established.

Gary Ardnt:

You know, it, it, it, it's, it's sort of found, its, its groove.

Gary Ardnt:

What do the next five years hold?

Bobby Fleshman:

Well,

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: not changing MSB, , , I a number one.

Bobby Fleshman:

I was telling Allison last night that we have done this five

Bobby Fleshman:

years and now it's time to sell our brand.

Bobby Fleshman:

You know, we, we for so long worse, it was pushed,

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: we're not selling the brewery just to clarify

Bobby Fleshman:

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Bobby Fleshman:

Sell our brand to, to make make shirts for fans, to buy and where

Bobby Fleshman:

we have ambassadors out there that, that want, they want to support us.

Bobby Fleshman:

They've seen what we've been through.

Bobby Fleshman:

They love, they like our story.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's why we're doing this podcast because now I think we have content.

Bobby Fleshman:

I think now we actually There's more pull in some sense than push.

Bobby Fleshman:

And I think that's, that's kind of abstractly what we're going

Bobby Fleshman:

to do in the next five years.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: I think embrace our fans and really start to see where

Bobby Fleshman:

they're, they want to take it too.

Gary Ardnt:

Cause I've, I've been here some nights where there have been people

Gary Ardnt:

from out of state who show up and it's like, I've heard about this place.

Gary Ardnt:

I needed to come.

Gary Ardnt:

Oh my

Gary Ardnt:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: gosh, seriously.

Gary Ardnt:

Oh, that's so great.

Gary Ardnt:

That's so great.

Gary Ardnt:

And I, I know I can, I can tell you guys are obviously building

Gary Ardnt:

your reputation both, you know, it's people from around Wisconsin and from

Gary Ardnt:

outside of Wisconsin who come here.

Gary Ardnt:

yeah, I'm very curious to see where you take it over the next five years.

Gary Ardnt:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: So are we, you know,

Bobby Fleshman:

when we opened, we didn't know there was going

Bobby Fleshman:

to be this three year speed bump that the pandemic really created.

Bobby Fleshman:

So let's hope we don't get any of those, but on its own, I think it's bright.

Bobby Fleshman:

I think we have a well defined brand and that's something that too, if

Bobby Fleshman:

you're opening a business is you have to find out how much you want

Bobby Fleshman:

to laminate what you think you're going to do and stick with that.

Bobby Fleshman:

Cause there is a certain component of that.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: That's true.

Bobby Fleshman:

We do make hazies now.

Bobby Fleshman:

More bursting.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Versus bending to the market.

Bobby Fleshman:

You've got to find what's the right balance.

Bobby Fleshman:

And if we were in Chicago, we might have 10 beer engines

Bobby Fleshman:

and nothing else, for example.

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh, that would be wonderful.

Bobby Fleshman:

But you can't do that in a town where you need to supply all the styles

Bobby Fleshman:

because you're one of three breweries or four breweries at this point.

Gary Ardnt:

And I should add in part of the brand that as I see it, it

Gary Ardnt:

isn't just that you're making beer.

Gary Ardnt:

You have some very knowledgeable people behind the bar.

Gary Ardnt:

You're literally doing courses.

Gary Ardnt:

On the history and the science of beer

Gary Ardnt:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Beer school

Gary Ardnt:

that there's, there's kind of more to it that like it's,

Gary Ardnt:

it's kind of, if you're a beer lover, this would be the place for you.

Bobby Fleshman:

Our science is respecting the beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

This podcast says respecting the beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

I always think of us as a brewery for burgers.

Bobby Fleshman:

When I see our sign, it doesn't, it would never translate, but in my mind,

Bobby Fleshman:

I want to be a brewery for burgers.

Bobby Fleshman:

That doesn't matter whether you're a professional.

Bobby Fleshman:

Or homebrewer, or maybe just an enthusiast of beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

But I think of us in that way.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: It's true.

Bobby Fleshman:

When we bring, it's so fun to give people tours which we normally don't do.

Bobby Fleshman:

But if we're in a conversation or something, Oh, let's take you

Bobby Fleshman:

to the back and we'll show you.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's fun to take homebrewers back there because they look up at the

Bobby Fleshman:

equipment and they're so excited, but then we know immediately if they're an

Bobby Fleshman:

actual brewer, a professional brewer, because the first thing they do is

Bobby Fleshman:

they look at the floor and they're like, Oh, Oh, look at this floor.

Bobby Fleshman:

Because it's a very special type of floor that's specific to breweries

Bobby Fleshman:

for breweries for the floor drains.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's one of those things.

Bobby Fleshman:

If you're a brewer, that's what you're going to notice.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: It's really funny.

Bobby Fleshman:

But then that particular floor is actually the same floor, the same batch

Bobby Fleshman:

of tile even that was at Sierra Nevada.

Bobby Fleshman:

there, North Carolina,

Bobby Fleshman:

maybe someday we'll talk about the construction of the place,

Bobby Fleshman:

but yeah, there's a whole story there.

Bobby Fleshman:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: But anyway, so it's, it's really fun to see Lake.

Bobby Fleshman:

To get to engage with folks, both from the pro brewer side, but

Bobby Fleshman:

also from the beer lover side.

Gary Ardnt:

Well, I think this is a good place to wrap up

Gary Ardnt:

the McFleshman's origin story.

Gary Ardnt:

Then I know that for all these things we've talked about, there's

Gary Ardnt:

a lot more we can get into.

Gary Ardnt:

And we, we will in the future, whether it's about beer or business

Gary Ardnt:

or brewing thanks for your time.

Gary Ardnt:

And, we'll be talking a whole lot more about beer.

Gary Ardnt:

Fabulous.

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Respecting the Beer
A podcast for the science, history, and love of beer

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