Podchaser Logo Rate on Podchaser

Episode 4

Beer 101: What Exactly is Beer?

Gary gets the basics of beer from Bobby and Allison this week and we all learn a thing or two! What actually makes up a beer? If it's only four ingredients, how are there so many varieties of beer? What makes a sour different from an IPA or an ale from a lager?

Got a question about beer or just want to get social? Join the RtB Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/respectingthebeer

--

Hosts:

Bobby Fleshman

Allison McCoy-Fleshman

Gary Ardnt

Music by Sarah Lynn Huss

Recorded & Produced by David Kalsow

Brought to you by McFleshman's Brewing Co

Transcript
Gary Arndt:

Welcome back to respecting the beer.

2

:

My name is Gary Arndt and with me

as usual is brewer, Bobby Fleschman

3

:

and Alison McCoy Fleschman.

4

:

How are you guys doing?

5

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Doing great.

6

:

Gary Arndt: Great.

7

:

We've talked about kind of the

origin superhero story of you guys,

8

:

how you got into beer, how you

started the brewery and why anyone

9

:

wants to do this is probably crazy.

10

:

Now we want to start getting

into beer and talking about beer.

11

:

And I am reminded of something

that was said in a Supreme court

12

:

decision by justice, Stuart Potter.

13

:

It was a court case on pornography.

14

:

And he basically said, I

don't know if I can define it,

15

:

but I know it when I see it.

16

:

And that has been the working

definition of pornography by the

17

:

Supreme court ever since with

beer, most people would identify

18

:

a beer if they were served a beer.

19

:

But if you were to ask people

what beer is, I don't know

20

:

if most people could do it.

21

:

So.

22

:

The question then is what's beer?

23

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: What is beer?

24

:

Bobby Fleshman: That's funny.

25

:

We, uh, beer porn exists in my life.

26

:

So you can grab that together.

27

:

That's the title of the

28

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: folder

for all of the beer photos.

29

:

We have is the beer, the

good photos is the beer porn.

30

:

Bobby Fleshman: Have I mentioned,

we have a tank on display

31

:

showing beer happen in real time.

32

:

Anyway, I digress.

33

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: What is beer?

34

:

Bobby Fleshman: What is beer?

35

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: There

are four ingredients in beer.

36

:

Bobby Fleshman: Well, without going

into a deep dive of the thousands

37

:

and thousands and thousands of years

prior to beer or whatever, what is

38

:

going on is fermentation, right?

39

:

And if you go back in time, that might

have been grapes, it might have been

40

:

honey, it eventually became beer.

41

:

Cultivated malt or barley that

was malted and that became beer.

42

:

We'll go into all of that, but

fermentation happens everywhere in nature.

43

:

I think there are primates that get

drunk on fruits that naturally ferment.

44

:

And

45

:

Gary Arndt: just for the kids who

didn't pay attention in science class.

46

:

Fermentation

47

:

Bobby Fleshman: is what?

48

:

Fermentation.

49

:

Uh, not

50

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: fun at all.

51

:

It's when he's pooped out alcohol.

52

:

It's quite lovely,

53

:

Bobby Fleshman: right?

54

:

Yeah.

55

:

There's a lot of ways that we could

take that yeast pooping out alcohol.

56

:

That's one really carbon

57

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman:

dioxide and some other things.

58

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

59

:

The, the yeast that brewers work with

is what I know best, but I've had some

60

:

nights where I would be defined as yeast,

61

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman:

you know, that's yep.

62

:

Okay.

63

:

Bobby Fleshman: So yeah, taking glucose.

64

:

which is a simple sugar and turning it

into alcohol and carbon dioxide is the

65

:

process that I'm most familiar with.

66

:

And, and that's, that's

what brewers think about.

67

:

There are lots of.

68

:

Parallel processes that create

the flavors of what we call beer.

69

:

But that is the very most basic

way to describe what's happening.

70

:

We take fungus from nature that we

call yeast, single cell fungus, and

71

:

that they, they then are fed sugar

and we give them the right conditions.

72

:

They make alcohol for us from, from

barley that has been prepared for them.

73

:

And Alison's shaking.

74

:

She wants to go back or I'm just, I'm

75

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: just in

terms of a, um, There's a very

76

:

general idea of what is beer.

77

:

We often joke that it's liquid bread.

78

:

And so the ingredients in bread,

you've got your flour, you've got

79

:

your yeast, you've probably got

some other additives and such.

80

:

But beer really is grain,

water, yeast, and hops.

81

:

Those four simple things come together.

82

:

Now, granted the coming together

is where you just dove right into.

83

:

Um, but you know, it's, it's

84

:

Bobby Fleshman: kind of

what is fermentation.

85

:

Well, that's what makes a beer.

86

:

Yeah.

87

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Um,

so is that the question then?

88

:

Is it, what point does it become a beer?

89

:

Gary Arndt: Well, yeah.

90

:

And that, that's why I asked the

question because it really is

91

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman:

something that, that, that

92

:

Gary Arndt: most people probably,

you know, again, they know when

93

:

they see it, but what is it?

94

:

Yeah.

95

:

Wine undergoes

96

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: fermentation.

97

:

Gary Arndt: There are other

beverages that do as well.

98

:

We don't recognize those as beer.

99

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: I think one of

the disconnects might be is that you'll

100

:

drink pre fermented wine as in just

grape juice, but you normally don't drink

101

:

pre fermented beer, which is the word.

102

:

It's the sugar water that

you get from the grain.

103

:

I enjoy it.

104

:

You do, and you're weird.

105

:

A lot of people enjoy that.

106

:

It's not, it's fine.

107

:

It's sweet.

108

:

You can definitely tell.

109

:

Lots of

110

:

Bobby Fleshman: energy there.

111

:

You can

112

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: get

the, the precursors of the

113

:

beer that it will become.

114

:

But those yeast really do do some magic.

115

:

Bobby Fleshman: I will try not to throw

winemakers under the bus, but there are

116

:

a lot of compounds found in beer health

wise that are not found in wine and that

117

:

includes certain proteins and minerals

and well, tannins are found in wine, of

118

:

course, but you get those in beer as well.

119

:

So where, where are we defining beer?

120

:

When did, when did it become beer?

121

:

I, I think I should have said those

yeast are consuming glucose, but they

122

:

start in beer as consuming maltose.

123

:

Maltose is two sugars that are

linked together in a certain way.

124

:

And to the best of my knowledge,

uh, wine yeast is not terribly great

125

:

at working with those molecules.

126

:

We have selected over time as

brewers, those, those yeast that

127

:

can, can metabolize them, ultimately

turning them into what we call beer.

128

:

So,

129

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: but we often

laugh in the brewery how you just make

130

:

work like the brewers just make the work.

131

:

The yeast make the beer.

132

:

Right.

133

:

So it's really a yeast centric.

134

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

135

:

We pamper them.

136

:

We make it just exactly

how they need it to be.

137

:

And we add oxygen and

we add all these things.

138

:

And then when they're done,

we flush them down the drain.

139

:

I mean, they, they live a luxurious

experience or they make it to a, the

140

:

belly of a cow, but they're, they have

an end soon after they make the beer.

141

:

But we do pamper them.

142

:

We understand our use really well.

143

:

And I think there's a

little more terroir in the.

144

:

In the wine world, you sort of let

things go with the seasons, but with

145

:

beer, you have strict control over

every single variable to make the same

146

:

product every time, even though we are

dealing with variable inputs because

147

:

it's an agricultural product by nature.

148

:

It's just sort of the, so the two natures

of those two industries, we celebrate

149

:

vintage with wine and we tend to expect

the same every time from a brewer,

150

:

that's a big diet, a sidetrack, but.

151

:

Yeah.

152

:

Just, just painting way out.

153

:

Remember the

154

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman:

question was what is beer?

155

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

156

:

What is beer?

157

:

I think, I think you have to start

by, by the modern definition.

158

:

This is, this is really motivated

by modern Germany, modern England.

159

:

You have to start with barley.

160

:

And you have to germinate that

and do what we call malt it, which

161

:

is to say germinate and sprouts.

162

:

I won't go into germination too in

depth, but you trick that seed into

163

:

growing, it becomes softer and then

we cut that process short and cook

164

:

it to generate some toasty flavors.

165

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: It's pretty

much like a, um, like a, Barley oatmeal.

166

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah, really kind of is.

167

:

And then we just drain off the

water and we leave the sludge.

168

:

Yeah.

169

:

And you wouldn't even have to malt it.

170

:

It does not

171

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: sound sexy at all.

172

:

Bobby Fleshman: Oh, you

mean in the brewing process?

173

:

Yeah.

174

:

Yeah.

175

:

But to jump forward to the brewing

process is to dis, it's to disregard

176

:

everything that's done before the brewer

starts because the brewer starts with.

177

:

Malt and malt is created by

what are known as monsters.

178

:

And monsters are people who soften that

grain and prepare it for the brewer.

179

:

Let's just take

180

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: a moment

and think about what the business

181

:

card says or how you would

introduce yourself on an airplane.

182

:

I'm a monster,

183

:

Bobby Fleshman: right?

184

:

It's just awesome.

185

:

Exactly.

186

:

Yeah.

187

:

It's a, it's a spelling you used

to over time, but so there you go.

188

:

So modern in modern definition, the

modern definition of what is beer.

189

:

You need to start with a

barley and sometimes wheat.

190

:

And you need to somehow get

access to those starches inside.

191

:

And the maltsters have figured

that out, but so a brewer

192

:

is independent of maltsters.

193

:

So here we go.

194

:

we hydrate it , in the brewery and we

boil it and I'll get into all those steps

195

:

that precede the, the adding of the yeast.

196

:

But here we go.

197

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman:

I'm just here to dive deep.

198

:

Yep.

199

:

Go for it.

200

:

Bobby Fleshman: At the end of the

day, you're making a concoction

201

:

that yeast can ferment, and it

would end up being too sweet.

202

:

So we have chosen over time, different

kinds of spices to balance that sweetness.

203

:

So we've got the alcohol hooray, but now

we're looking for a palatable product.

204

:

And we've landed on in

modern context hops.

205

:

So that the hops give you that, that

bitterness to balance that sweetness

206

:

against, and that really does

summarize what it is to be a beer.

207

:

You really have just that grain

in that water with that yeast.

208

:

Plus those hops.

209

:

So the

210

:

Gary Arndt: alcohol comes

from the conversion of sugars.

211

:

Where's the sugar coming from?

212

:

Is it added or is it coming naturally from

213

:

Bobby Fleshman: the malt?

214

:

So malt is, they're sometimes

called berries in other contexts.

215

:

They're, they're grass.

216

:

It's grass that we've cultivated

over the, over 10, 000 years.

217

:

Uh, selected it for making bread and beer.

218

:

And they, they've been selected to

make larger and larger kernels, seeds,

219

:

berries, depends on your context.

220

:

And at the center of those

seeds are these starchy centers.

221

:

And that starchy center is, is

what gives those sugars once

222

:

you break that starch down.

223

:

Gary Arndt: In the creation

of spirits like whiskey, which

224

:

is also grain based, there's a

process where they create a mash.

225

:

But obviously it's, it's,

it's later distilled.

226

:

Where does that process diverge

from beer making at what

227

:

Bobby Fleshman: point?

228

:

Right.

229

:

So the thing about making spirits is

you're not, you're really mostly looking

230

:

to produce ethanol at the end of the day.

231

:

You're not really worried about any so

called off flavors that might come about

232

:

by mistreatment of your fermentation.

233

:

Now, I'm not a distiller, and I know

that there is some thought and some

234

:

science behind what gets transferred in

distillation from, from the, the wash,

235

:

which is what it's called in that context.

236

:

But in general, you're just looking

for, for ethanol production.

237

:

So you're still have your, your

yeast combined with your, with your

238

:

wash and that's breaking down those

starches into sugars and alcohol.

239

:

And then that gets distilled off and

the rest of, so it's, you start with

240

:

a really low quality grain in general,

because you're just looking for something

241

:

to fuel that ethanol production.

242

:

But with beer, you're looking for

the whole profile, nothing escapes.

243

:

So you have to nail the whole process in

terms of fermentation temperatures, the

244

:

most obvious pH there's mineral content.

245

:

There's so many different things you got

to think about because those yeast have

246

:

got to be top performers and the yeast

itself, by the way, because the, the

247

:

yeast that you can use to make Spirit.

248

:

It really is just needs to be robust.

249

:

It doesn't need to have any

finesse at all involved.

250

:

So that's really where they diverge

because once you have your fermented wash,

251

:

you, you can then go about separating

that from your grain and then you can

252

:

distill it off and produce your spirit.

253

:

But with beer, you're, like I said, you're

taking that, that fermentation all the way

254

:

to completion, and then you make sure that

that beer stays cold and carbonated and.

255

:

Ultimately, uh, you might even

add hops in the fermenter.

256

:

There's a lot of feed that's

along the way for beer.

257

:

Well, another thing is

258

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: that the color

that you get, so the difference of the

259

:

color from like a whiskey or a beer,

the beer, the color originates from the

260

:

grain, whereas a whiskey, you're probably

going to have it originate from the

261

:

barrels that it was aged and it would have

started clear when it was in the barrels.

262

:

So that mash even though it kind

of up to that point of extracting

263

:

the sugars from the grain but then

with the beer, there's so much more.

264

:

Residual, not residual, but a

history of that mash in the glass.

265

:

You're actually drinking.

266

:

Whereas not necessarily

the same with spirits,

267

:

Bobby Fleshman: right?

268

:

You, you, you order your barrels.

269

:

If you make bourbon, you order them

with a certain char and a certain toast.

270

:

You can see this with wine as well.

271

:

You're, you're getting flavors and colors

from your barrels and the spirit world.

272

:

Yeah, it's all very clear in the

spirit world and the spirit world.

273

:

Gary Arndt: Okay.

274

:

So.

275

:

Then hops.

276

:

Right?

277

:

So you talked about four ingredients.

278

:

Mm-Hmm.

279

:

. Yeah.

280

:

And then this is the traditional

German ridings height.

281

:

Kobo.

282

:

Mm-Hmm.

283

:

. You have water, yeast, malt, and hops.

284

:

So we've kind of talked about the malt.

285

:

The yeast makes the alcohol.

286

:

Water is obviously water.

287

:

Where do the hops come into play?

288

:

Bobby Fleshman: Is it

at what, by what stage?

289

:

In the process?

290

:

In the process?

291

:

Yeah.

292

:

The, the motivation was to balance

that and also the preservative

293

:

property, balance that sweetness.

294

:

But then the.

295

:

Preservation of that

liquid is also important.

296

:

I think that was plenty of the

elder and later Hildegard von

297

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: being in, yeah,

298

:

Bobby Fleshman: of Germany,

299

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Bavaria.

300

:

Bobby Fleshman: I'm sorry.

301

:

Yeah.

302

:

I'm not sure it was several

303

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: hundred something.

304

:

Bobby Fleshman: I defer to Gary

on the history there, but we

305

:

was Hildegard of being in St.

306

:

Hildegard.

307

:

She was an Abbess who.

308

:

It's extensively on beer, botanist

and astronomer and all kinds of rumor

309

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: has it.

310

:

She was the first one to add the hops.

311

:

Bobby Fleshman: Well, she was the one

to identify the, uh, preservative nature

312

:

of hops in beer, as far as I know.

313

:

But when did it become, you

asked when in the process, is

314

:

it, is it coming into play?

315

:

So if you take, if you take hops,

there's, there's a couple of things

316

:

that we, we use them for in terms of.

317

:

The, the flavor one is the bitterness.

318

:

Coincidentally also gives you

that preservative quality, but

319

:

you get flavors and aromas too.

320

:

And there's these oil, the

essential oils that are involved and

321

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: the exact same

type that are the fresh cut grass smell.

322

:

You get terpenes.

323

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

324

:

There's all sorts of oils that we look

at in, in, It hops in a modern context.

325

:

In the old days, you might not

have cared much about that.

326

:

You might've been focused only on the

bittering and on the preservative quality.

327

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: And when

you say bittering, you mean to

328

:

balance out the sweetness of

329

:

Bobby Fleshman: the malt?

330

:

So in the old days, you would just

throw those hops into a boiling

331

:

kettle of this, what we call wort.

332

:

And that wort is that liquid that's

been separated from that grain

333

:

and it contains all those sugars

that will later become alcohol.

334

:

So you, in that boil, you toss these hops

and you let it boil a quite a long time.

335

:

And in modern times, 60 minutes and older

times when you didn't have as strong

336

:

of a boil, it might take three hours.

337

:

So they would toss these whole cone hops.

338

:

They look a lot like they're

cousins to cousin, that they are

339

:

a little bit like marijuana when

you see them for the first time.

340

:

But you can pull them off like

a little, uh, kind of meets, uh,

341

:

I was going to say artichoke.

342

:

But you just can, you toss them

in right off the, off the plant,

343

:

boil it for 60 minutes or more.

344

:

And you're going to be mostly

left with that bittering acid

345

:

and not much else except for that

preservative, preservative quality.

346

:

But now in later times, we've been,

We've been breeding these hops to

347

:

give us more aromas and more flavors.

348

:

We've really latched onto that.

349

:

And that's not something that Germany did.

350

:

Germany didn't care so much

about that feature of hops.

351

:

And so it really took an American hop

revolution to take us where we are today.

352

:

So that's about 50 years of.

353

:

Of hop breeding in the U

S to give us those aromas.

354

:

And those, and then those hops

don't get put in for 60 minutes.

355

:

Those hops get thrown into that kettle

at the moment that you stop boiling.

356

:

Cause you don't want to lose those oils.

357

:

You also might just throw them in like a

tea into a finished beer and then steep

358

:

them and that's called dry hopping.

359

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: I was just going

to push you along to say that you can

360

:

really, I, in the Boiling before you add

the yeast, it's boiling, then you have

361

:

to chill it really quickly, but you can

add the, add the hops pretty much any

362

:

time when that boils going all the way

through to, you can even add it after

363

:

it's done fermenting, it's been in the

keg, it's come into the glass and then

364

:

you can actually add it into your beer

as you're sitting here and drinking it.

365

:

So there's actually no, you

should consider doing that.

366

:

It's a garnish.

367

:

It's very aggressive hop

368

:

Bobby Fleshman: garnish.

369

:

Well, we've done it actually lion's tail.

370

:

I'll give a shout out to a brewery nearby.

371

:

We,

372

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: they have

those fancy tea mug things that,

373

:

that they fill with hops and then

they pour the beer through and then

374

:

you let it steep for a few minutes.

375

:

Um, it's quite, again, it's

aggressive in the hop flavor.

376

:

When you do that,

377

:

Bobby Fleshman: Alison's not a huge fan.

378

:

I like my multi beer.

379

:

I think she likes the balance they

provide, but beyond that, she, that's

380

:

the limitation of her love for hops.

381

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: They're lovely.

382

:

Gary Arndt: that, I now kind of want to

do a speed round because each one of these

383

:

things I'm going to bring up and some that

you're going to have to bring up we can

384

:

do full deep dive episodes on, but there's

a lot of terms out there that people have

385

:

heard beer is obviously an overarching

kind of thing, but now that I want you

386

:

to kind of briefly describe and explain

what each of the, the types of beer are.

387

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Oh.

388

:

Gary Arndt: And let's start with an ale.

389

:

What is, is, is an ale a subset of beer?

390

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yes.

391

:

I would say it's, so the ales are

going to be the top fermenting yeast.

392

:

So the, the yeast will either find

their way, um, when they're, they've

393

:

been thrown in the beer or the wort's

been cooled, the yeast go in to eat the

394

:

sugars and make CO2 and make ethanol

which is the alcohol that we consume.

395

:

And the yeast will find

themselves if they're an ale,

396

:

they will float to the top.

397

:

Of the vessel.

398

:

And if they are a logger,

they will float to the jet.

399

:

Don't really float to the bottom.

400

:

Is that a phrase?

401

:

Sing to the bottom.

402

:

But yes, and the Ailes with that

have a slightly different feel.

403

:

They're creamier, they're boxer.

404

:

More robust in malt flavor.

405

:

They're just overall more glorious

because I might be partial to the ales.

406

:

Bobby Fleshman: I, I have an intimate

relationship with all of these

407

:

fermentations that happen and, and

it's a little bit simplified to

408

:

say that it's top and bottom, but

Alison's basically right there.

409

:

Ales.

410

:

I am very much right there.

411

:

Unless it's

412

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: not an ale or a

lager and that's kind of in the middle.

413

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

414

:

They tend, they tend to, those exist too.

415

:

Yeah.

416

:

They tend to be on top because

they tend to be fermented warmer.

417

:

And when you ferment warmer, you

tend to generate, evolve carbon

418

:

dioxide more quickly and it tends

to drive the yeast to the top.

419

:

And if they have any, what I'll call

a flocculant characteristic, that's a,

420

:

that's a word that really means do they

have a tendency to group against one

421

:

another, to stick against one another.

422

:

Then they tend to raft and they

tend to ride bubbles to the top.

423

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman:

Little yeast parties.

424

:

Yeah.

425

:

It's fun.

426

:

Bobby Fleshman: So when you learn, this is

for the home brewers out there, when you

427

:

learn about flocculation, you're thinking

about how they family friendly show.

428

:

Yeah, right.

429

:

It's the F word.

430

:

Once you

431

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: go flocculation.

432

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

433

:

So when they, so when they group

together, they tend to make larger

434

:

and larger and larger bundles.

435

:

I mean, literally like 10, 000 in a

one bundle at the end of their, their,

436

:

their fermentation, they will do so.

437

:

And then they drop to the bottom of

your, of your fermentation vessel.

438

:

And so when home brewers or anyone that's

somewhat familiar with brewing Brewing

439

:

hears me say that more flocculent yeast

tend to be on the top of the vessel.

440

:

It's counterintuitive and the reason

is because they're riding the carbon

441

:

dioxide that's evolving from beer.

442

:

Okay.

443

:

Okay.

444

:

That's, that's beer.

445

:

Yeah.

446

:

Sorry.

447

:

Yeah.

448

:

Pale ale.

449

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Woo.

450

:

Pale ale.

451

:

Awesome.

452

:

So I'm going to butcher this

story, but we're going to

453

:

go with it because it's fun.

454

:

The, gosh, a pale ale is actually

a hoppy beer, which is frustrating.

455

:

At least if it's an American pale, a

British pale, it's going to be more malty.

456

:

But a pale ale is the idea that you

actually have a light colored beer.

457

:

Beer and light colored was actually

very hard to do because I believe

458

:

the grain when they would roast

it would always catch fire.

459

:

And so they had to basically roast it

until it was dark and you get like a, like

460

:

a really, really dark beer when you roast

or when you toast your bread too long,

461

:

it turns dark, kind of that burnt color.

462

:

Same thing with the grain.

463

:

But to get it to where you were

roasting it but had enough temperature

464

:

control that you could get the

grain to be just slightly amber and

465

:

or light, that was actually really

hard and it was an industrial,

466

:

like milestone that they reached.

467

:

And the pale ale then became almost

like a, uh, a status symbol that you

468

:

could afford a pale ale because it

was a very rare thing and hard to do.

469

:

Did I get it right?

470

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

471

:

There's, there's seven podcasts here.

472

:

I won't even go into any of them.

473

:

But it was like 18, 30, 000.

474

:

It was burning

475

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: around the

industry revolution when, um, steam

476

:

engines were all the rage, they were able

to then really control the temperature.

477

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

478

:

Of the

479

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: killing.

480

:

You know, without

481

:

Bobby Fleshman: going into it.

482

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman:

Oh, it was the Molsters.

483

:

Oh, yay, the Molsters

are going to come back.

484

:

I was about to say, this is

485

:

Bobby Fleshman: why we have to

always bring back the Molsters.

486

:

They were able to create these

light colored malts and it led to

487

:

the number one malt that's ever

been made is the Pilsner malt.

488

:

And it became, it led to the Czech

Pilsner, which led to the German Pilsner.

489

:

We'll get to that.

490

:

Yeah.

491

:

Yeah.

492

:

Yeah.

493

:

So India pale ale.

494

:

Mm.

495

:

Yeah.

496

:

Yeah.

497

:

As I'm drinking one of

those, the original one.

498

:

Yeah.

499

:

English in England made

the India pale ale.

500

:

And the, there are many, many stories.

501

:

And I'm sure we'll talk about

this at length at some point.

502

:

One of the stories is that you

would make a, hop that could

503

:

survive voyage from United Kingdom

to the colonies in, uh, in India.

504

:

And so one of the stories goes that

they would, they would hop up their

505

:

pale ale and, and, you know, That

it would be able to survive a warm

506

:

voyage across the horn of Africa.

507

:

And that's some truth to that, but

the reality of it is they were sending

508

:

hoppy porters more than they were

IPAs, like a factor of four to one.

509

:

But nevertheless, the, the

India, the India, India pale

510

:

ale originated in England.

511

:

It was a pale ale that was hopped

and also more alcoholic in general.

512

:

But again, you find conflicting evidence

as to, it may have been lower alcohol.

513

:

In fact, But in, in every

case, it's always hoppy.

514

:

Yep.

515

:

Double, triple, quadruple IPA.

516

:

Well, right.

517

:

Is it just more hops?

518

:

A lot of this is from the

American craft beer revolution.

519

:

These names.

520

:

The double IPA, I think,

was the, the first one was.

521

:

Pliny.

522

:

I know it's pronounced Pliny, but

commercially it's pronounced Pliny the

523

:

Elder by Russian River Brewing Company.

524

:

And that was the first of its kind,

at least it's credited as being that.

525

:

And that was only in the last 20 years.

526

:

So this is really in the last two

decades we see these, these monikers.

527

:

A porter.

528

:

Oh, that's a long answer.

529

:

Allison could start on that one.

530

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: It's delicious.

531

:

Porters are dark.

532

:

Gary Arndt: You can just

run it through chat.

533

:

GPT tell you to summarize one paragraph.

534

:

Yeah, that's true.

535

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Porter.

536

:

What's a Porter.

537

:

It's not a stout.

538

:

I'll say that.

539

:

So Porter's going to be a sweet multi

dark something about Porter was actually

540

:

the original, I believe before the stout.

541

:

Bobby Fleshman: It was,

yeah, it was stout Porter.

542

:

It became stout.

543

:

So Porter evolved into stout.

544

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Right.

545

:

And the difference between, and I always

get this confused and I always have to

546

:

look it up right before I say it and

I don't have my phone in front of me.

547

:

So.

548

:

A stout is roasted unmalted barley.

549

:

Correct.

550

:

And a porter is malted, not

551

:

Bobby Fleshman: roasted barley.

552

:

It's roasted.

553

:

But lower proportions.

554

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Lower proportions

of roasted in the recipe, but it's

555

:

malted, whereas a stout is an unmalted.

556

:

Roasted barley.

557

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

558

:

And significant proportions.

559

:

Yeah.

560

:

Yes.

561

:

You get a lot of I did it.

562

:

Yay.

563

:

Yeah, you get a lot of flaked

barley as well, so you get a lot.

564

:

Yeah.

565

:

Well, there's a lot of that in

an Irish Stout Unmalted product.

566

:

Gary Arndt: A lager and you see a lot

of beers that most people drink are a

567

:

lager again, I don't know if most people

could tell you the difference between

568

:

a lager and an ale or anything else.

569

:

So what is a lager?

570

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Many people will

come in and say, Oh, I'll have the logger.

571

:

And we're like, well, which one?

572

:

And they're like, well, the

logger, like we have seven.

573

:

So there's so many

different types of loggers.

574

:

Bobby Fleshman: I'm not sure how to

answer that in a speed round, but it's

575

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: a top fermenting.

576

:

Oh, he's all right.

577

:

No bottom fermenting.

578

:

There we go.

579

:

The other one.

580

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yes, in Germany, this

Reinheitsgebot happened, but alongside,

581

:

the Reinheitsgebot defined those

ingredients by which you can make beer

582

:

and call it beer, but there was also

rules of time of year that you could

583

:

brew because it, beer that was brewed

in the summer would go sour and really

584

:

what they did in making that rules,

they started to self select yeast

585

:

that can survive the colder months.

586

:

And, over time, that meant that the

ale yeast got out competed, and then

587

:

you had this new kind of yeast that

could endure these colder temperatures.

588

:

Uh, there's, there's a very long,

interesting story about how they connected

589

:

the lager strain of yeast to other strains

in history, but very fa fascinating stuff.

590

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: And when it

comes to me versus Bobby, which is always

591

:

an important thing to say I would say

that I'm the ales, you're the lagers.

592

:

Cause I think ales are

just so much better.

593

:

Bobby Fleshman: I'm

drinking an ale right now.

594

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman:

No, that's not fair.

595

:

Loggers are, I think are technically

more challenging to do, to make.

596

:

Bobby Fleshman: They are the

technical Marvel and it really

597

:

took the German approach to

brewing to make them what they are.

598

:

And they led to a million different

innovations along the way.

599

:

Pilsner.

600

:

Speaking of modern Marvels.

601

:

Yeah.

602

:

Yeah.

603

:

Pilsner may be the quintessential,

maybe the peak of the mountain in

604

:

terms of, uh, beer making prowess.

605

:

Everybody says order the Pilsner

first when you go to a brewery.

606

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: It's true.

607

:

It's just like when you go to

a diner and it's like, you just

608

:

start with the bacon and eggs.

609

:

If they can't do eggs, right.

610

:

You don't even care about the omelet

that they're going to screw up.

611

:

Bobby Fleshman: And the, and the

Germans make a beer called a Helles.

612

:

And that is sort of the response

to the Pilsner originally.

613

:

So both of those beers are the

most difficult ones to make.

614

:

And in the world, in my opinion,

that I've come across, they're just

615

:

perfectly balanced, clear beers that

have nothing to hide behind there.

616

:

There should be very, very corrupt.

617

:

What people call crushable.

618

:

They should be able to be consumed

without thinking about them.

619

:

But if you're a brewer, you

can get lost in the details.

620

:

If they're perfectly made,

they're, they're just amazing.

621

:

And there's too many, too many things to

say, to fill that speed round up a sour.

622

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Oh,

please let me talk about this one.

623

:

Also delicious.

624

:

The sours are, I think, the most

misunderstood type of beer in that they

625

:

are normally naturally fermented with,

they'll, they'll, you'll open up the vats.

626

:

So they're they're not necessarily,

Bad, but they have certain notes

627

:

that in some beers would be an

indicator that they've gone bad.

628

:

They're also made with pretend on

my season a lot of times, which

629

:

is a different kind of yeast.

630

:

Is that

631

:

Bobby Fleshman: British fungus?

632

:

That's how that translates.

633

:

And I didn't know that

634

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: the Brits

635

:

Bobby Fleshman: were the ones that.

636

:

Isolated in, in inadvertently.

637

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Go team.

638

:

Anyway, so it's a, it's a delicious beer.

639

:

But there's so many

different types of sours.

640

:

I wouldn't say that there's

necessarily one kind of sour.

641

:

Would you?

642

:

Bobby Fleshman: No.

643

:

Originally every beer was sour because

there was bacteria in all the process.

644

:

There was, there wasn't a, a

microbiology didn't come about.

645

:

More than 150 years ago.

646

:

So you, you certainly saw that that

would happen with every single beer.

647

:

And so you got, you had, you saw

people drink milds and English

648

:

milds were beers that were young.

649

:

They may be dark, they may be light, but

they were young and they weren't sour.

650

:

And porters tended to be

sour because they were older.

651

:

And then they, then the port of the,

the people working behind the bar were

652

:

called publicans and they would blend

the, these milds and these porters

653

:

and these sometimes stouts and they

would create your drink of choice.

654

:

They have three pools.

655

:

That's all they had.

656

:

They had three beers to pull from.

657

:

Eventually they had pales and

IPAs, but they were able to

658

:

blend those to the customer spec.

659

:

How sour do you want it?

660

:

But yeah, there's, there's

so many episodes there.

661

:

A Bach.

662

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman:

Is Bobby's favorite?

663

:

Bobby Fleshman: So, a bach is

to malt what IPA is to hops.

664

:

What a double IPA is to hops.

665

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: That

666

:

Bobby Fleshman: is true.

667

:

It's extremely malty.

668

:

Extremely balanced.

669

:

If done well, malty doesn't mean sweet.

670

:

So if you get a, a Bach, that's hard

to drink, if you can't finish a glass,

671

:

but you like the flavor of it, that's

much like an indulgent dessert, right?

672

:

It's not what you want to

see as a brewer though.

673

:

You want someone to finish a glass and

then at that last sip want the next glass.

674

:

And so that's, that's

my little soapbox about.

675

:

Um, about malty versus sweet, but

yeah, you're really celebrating

676

:

some of these amber malts that

the Germans have perfected.

677

:

And you've, you bring up the

alcohol too, because that's

678

:

a flavor component in a Bach.

679

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah.

680

:

One of our highest alcohol

beers is our ice Bach, which is

681

:

Bobby Fleshman: 14 and a

half, 14 and a half percent.

682

:

Yeah.

683

:

So, but box range, you don't want to,

there's so many different kinds of box.

684

:

You can even make a vice by Gertrude.

685

:

It is.

686

:

I bought your last bottle.

687

:

Well, we have others.

688

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: She stashed away.

689

:

Bobby Fleshman: We stash them away.

690

:

Gary Arndt: there's A lot of

other beer types out there, but I

691

:

think those are like the big ones.

692

:

Bobby Fleshman: One, one worth

mentioning is, is this the smoked

693

:

beer, the rauchbier, because,

because every beer was smoked.

694

:

Well, no, no, no.

695

:

Every beer was smoked just as every

beer was, was soured at some point

696

:

because you didn't have the means

to indirectly make your, your malts.

697

:

So everything was directly

fired and directly smoked.

698

:

It wasn't by intention.

699

:

It just came through from the process.

700

:

So.

701

:

So only in the modern kiln, the process by

which we, we toast our, our grain today.

702

:

Can we separate the smoke from the heat

and now make not multi we're not smoky

703

:

beers, but that's neither here nor there.

704

:

Gary Arndt: So you have to buy like

specialty smoked malt if you want today.

705

:

Bobby Fleshman: Uh, Bomberg,

Germany only makes smoked malt.

706

:

There must be a dozen

breweries there that make it.

707

:

And I think the rauchbier

is, I think, yeah.

708

:

And they're, and they're

very drinkable, right?

709

:

There, if you've had enough smoke

beers, they do do them well, but

710

:

you can, you can get those out

of balance if you don't watch it.

711

:

Gary Arndt: All right.

712

:

I think this this is kind of a roadmap

for a lot of what we're going to be

713

:

talking about in future episodes.

714

:

We just covered them briefly, but

there's a lot of science, a lot of

715

:

history, a lot of culture behind a

lot of these different types of beer.

716

:

And we'll be covering them on future

episodes of respecting the beer.

717

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Thanks.

718

:

Bobby Fleshman: Excellent.

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

About the Podcast

Show artwork for Respecting the Beer
Respecting the Beer
A podcast for the science, history, and joy of beer

Listen for free