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Episode 5

How Does Color Affect Beer's Taste?

Bobby and Allison get nerdy for Gary about the aesthetic of beer and its nuanced effects on taste perception. Like what actually determines beer's color?

We explore the chemistry behind beer's hue, the Lavibond color scale for beer, and why glassware is so important.

Got a question about beer or just want to get social? Join the RtB Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/respectingthebeer

--

Hosts:

Bobby Fleshman

Allison McCoy-Fleshman

Gary Ardnt

Music by Sarah Lynn Huss

Recorded & Produced by David Kalsow

Brought to you by McFleshman's Brewing Co

Transcript
Gary Arndt:

Welcome to another episode of respecting the beer.

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My name is Gary R day with me.

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As usual is Bobby

Fleshman and Alison McCoy.

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How are you guys doing?

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Allison McCoy Fleshman: Great.

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Gary Arndt: Excellent.

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We've talked about beer.

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Generally.

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We've talked about your story this

episode, before you even get into

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tasting a beer, there is a presentation.

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You see it.

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You smell it, and that's what we want to

talk about today, because every beer has

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a unique color, it has a unique scent, how

it's presented can be totally different.

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So, let me start out with the

most basic question, where does

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the color in beer come from?

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Allison McCoy Fleshman:

Such a good question.

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Bobby, take it

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Gary Arndt: away.

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And to phrase it another way, why

do beers have a different color?

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Bobby Fleshman: Right,

right, right, right.

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Right.

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So, most of us are familiar with,

with beer, having sort of yellow

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all the way to black hues and.

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there's also an intensity related to that.

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So there's two questions here.

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What's the color?

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And then how do you get that intensity?

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So here comes Allison.

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Allison McCoy Fleshman: so I'm a chemistry

professor, so I'm going to throw in

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some chemistry bits here and there.

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This is one of the most epic thing.

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Beer gets its color from beer's law.

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And this is a legit chemistry thing.

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It's actually called the beer Lambert law.

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And you've experienced this

before when you have a really,

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very weak cup of coffee, it's

going to be a lot lighter Brown.

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And if you have a really strong

bit of coffee or a cup of coffee.

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It's going to be much, much, much darker.

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So that's called the Beer-Lambert Law.

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This is named after August

Beer of like:

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He's an English chemist.

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And basically the more stuff in the

water, the more light gets absorbed.

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And so that means it becomes darker.

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And so has nothing to do with actual beer.

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The guy's name actually originates from,

I think the word Shire from England.

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Not quite sure.

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Anyway, but beer's law says that the

more, materials in the beer that absorb

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light, the darker it's going to be.

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And that material comes from the malt.

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Bobby, you're

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Bobby Fleshman: cute.

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So historically, the way beer was made

was, you know, You'll recall barley was

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taken before that was, there were other

grains, but I guess in modern history,

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barley is taken and it is germinated.

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And that's just where that, where that

barley gets sprouted and in water, it

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gets tricked into thinking there's a rain.

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And then we halt that process and

eventually turn that into, to, malt

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by drying it out and sometimes kilning

kilning process is what gives you the,

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Colors and aromas that we associate with

beer as a, or yeah, with, with beer.

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One of the main components, the exact

colors that come out of that process

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are determined by at what temperature

that barley becoming malt is being

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germinated or, or, or, Killed that.

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Allison McCoy Fleshman: So

higher temperature, darker color.

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Bobby Fleshman: Right.

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Yeah.

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And also more protein.

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So you have different levels of proteins

in the various grains and varieties

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of, of, barley and you get a different

outcome based on the level of protein.

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And there are these molecules that

end up in the end product that

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interfere with light as you look at it.

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It's not really

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Allison McCoy Fleshman: interfere,

it's more of an absorbance.

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Bobby Fleshman: Absorbance.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, so that, Alice can speak

to the science exactly behind it,

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but you get different molecules

depending on what level of protein

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you have in the, in that barley.

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And so throughout time, For a variety

of reasons, the brewing industry has

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looked for the perfect barley, not just

in this context, but in other ones.

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And oftentimes one of the key

parameters is level protein.

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So really it's about heat and time

and then sort of protein levels.

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And then there's some stuff

that happens in brewing itself.

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There's ways of making that malt

turn into wort, turn into beer.

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And the, the small details about,

or by which different breweries.

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make their beer gives you different

colors, whether that be direct

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fire with heat or using steam.

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There are, there are ways you can,

you can affect the outcome in that

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context to modern times that people

are loving hate fast forward many

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hundreds of years and people are

loving hazy these days, hazy IPAs and

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that, and that color is really opaque.

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And so we're talking about a very

different thing that contributions

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coming from yeast and hops.

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And, it's what we call adjuncts like

oats and wheats and so forth, but that's

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your core background behind colors.

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Gary Arndt: So you have something like

a, so when you said the proteins is

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that's what's absorbing the light.

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Allison McCoy Fleshman: yes, and so part

of the proteins, but then also part of the

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other kind of off products or additional

products that will be, in the malt.

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And so you're going to have, so many

different molecules that comprise it

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that any one of them can be a culprit

of absorbing a little bit of light and

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then you add them all together and then

they're going to absorb a lot more.

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Gary Arndt: So if you take a

lager, which is traditionally

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a very light colored beer.

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And a stout, it's a very

dark beer, totally opaque.

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Is it the same stuff that, but

there's just more of it in a stout

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or is it completely different stuff?

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And let's then just for the heck of it,

throw in, if you have an amber lager,

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which is, you know, great in the lager

family, but different shade of color.

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Is that just as again, is it, is

it something else that's making

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the, the Amber logger a different

color or is it just more stuff of

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Bobby Fleshman: the same?

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Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yes.

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And yes.

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Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

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When you go past the kilning process,

which gives you those colors I

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mentioned, you get into what's

called roasting and roasting is

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taking an even higher temperatures.

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And I was going to

mention that a minute ago.

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I missed it.

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To roast something really creates

a dangerous scenario where

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you can have flames burst out.

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so this is sort of a modern

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Allison McCoy Fleshman:

when flames burst out.

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Let's talk about when The malting process.

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Bobby Fleshman: Yeah, this is post

malting Well, it's it's sort of the

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past the drying and the the germination

phases of malting You can move into

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what's known as a roasting drum or

other apparatus that allow you to take

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grain up to many hundreds of degrees.

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And if you don't have that control,

you'll have fires every other day.

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So you're actually looking at something

that was created in the last few hundred

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years or less than 200 years for sure.

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It's the industrial age and you see

Guinness, you see stouts and you

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see these various black beers being

created after we had control of that.

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So those malts are actually

cooked to a very dark level.

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Sometimes they're using raw barley.

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They just skip the malt altogether,

just incinerate it so you can almost

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take, you almost take what I said about

the protein level and throw it out the

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window when you're talking about taking

things to that level of, of a roast.

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Allison McCoy Fleshman:

Oh, that would make sense.

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Why the heads are different

than at the darker beers.

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Bobby Fleshman: Exactly.

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Yeah.

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We use raw barley there.

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Different protein compositions.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Now that you can take a raw

barley and roast it or you can,

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you can take a malt side story.

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Allison McCoy Fleshman:

We'll get to it later.

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Okay.

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I just had this realization because

the more protein that you have

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in a beer, the nor typically the

bigger the head is going to be.

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So the foam on the top and so less protein

means you're going to have less foam.

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And I'm just now realizing that's

one of the reasons our dark beers

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have less foam unless it's nitro,

but then we'll get to that.

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Bobby Fleshman: Right?

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Yeah.

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I don't want to go off on that.

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Right.

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That'll be the whole episode.

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Hold off.

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Allison McCoy Fleshman:

I'm at the edge of my seat.

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This is exciting.

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Oh,

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Bobby Fleshman: but you asked.

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So that's the, that's the one extreme.

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That's how you make a stout.

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Then actually, chronologically came

light, like Pilsner's and Hellas that

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actually came after your Guinness,

or your, your Irish stouts and so

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on, because that required a different

technological hurdle be overcome.

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And that was where.

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how do you, how do you cook?

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How do you do this germination

and kilning at a degree that

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leaves no color and cook without

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Allison McCoy Fleshman: burning?

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Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

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Cook without burning.

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And so they would use a Coke, which

was derived from coal and it has

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minimum impurities and it's, and

it allows you to make something

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that's not quote a smoked malt.

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And whereas in the days prior, it

might've been wood used to generate

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the heat and every malt coming

off the kiln might taste smoky.

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I don't

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Allison McCoy Fleshman:

necessarily know that I like smoky

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Bobby Fleshman: beers.

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There's another whole topic there.

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Smokey smoke styles.

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I think

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Allison McCoy Fleshman: it just, I

think it, it, it covers some of the,

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the, the beauty in the malt flavor.

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Bobby Fleshman: Right.

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Right.

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but when you overcome that, you can

make the lighter colored malts and

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that, and the English began making

pale ales, lighter and lighter, beers.

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And they called pale.

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They might have been actually

amber by today's standards, but

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that was taken even farther with

German Helles and Czech Pilsners.

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Allison McCoy Fleshman: Well, if I

remember correctly, the, it was such a

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rarity and it was much more expensive

to do that folks who could afford to get

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these pale lager, pale ales or pales,

would actually then like showcase them in

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fancy glassware and stuff to show every,

show the world that they were like, Hey,

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look, I can afford the fancy beer now.

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It doesn't have to be like the lower

level beer, which was the dark stuff.

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Bobby Fleshman: So in the middle

of all that, you can get ambers.

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You can do this in a couple of ways.

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You can figure out a way

to, to roast or not roast.

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You can do that lower temperature

kilning to get the colors you're

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looking to achieve, or maybe

that's just an inadvertent outcome.

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Or maybe use a combination of ingredients.

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Maybe use a all Pilsner

malt, a light colored malt.

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And then you toss in a little

bit of roasted barley and behold,

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you'll get an Irish red ale.

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So there, there are all kinds

of things you can do to make

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that from a recipe standpoint.

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Gary Arndt: So most brewers are probably

not going to be roasting their own malt.

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You're getting this from

someone who handles malt.

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So when you're making a decision

of what to brew, And are you

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looking at different suppliers?

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Do they have a catalog of different

malts and then different row?

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I mean, I'm just thinking of

all the different combinations

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of malts and roastings.

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That number could get

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Bobby Fleshman: potentially pretty large.

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Right.

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Oh yeah.

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It's infinite, the permutations.

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And you'll notice I spent a lot of

time talking about the guys that

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make this, the women that make

these ingredients upstream, the

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malsters cause they deserve that.

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And rather than all of the blame, which we

tend to do as brewers, we tend to blame.

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Them for everything that goes wrong.

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yeah.

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So we do spend a lot of time and we know

where their barley itself comes from.

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So it matters what the weather

patterns are like and it matters,

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matters how that farmer does his job.

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Allison McCoy Fleshman: But not

only that, to the point of when

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you're, you're looking for flavor,

but you're also looking for color.

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'cause we do taste with our eyes.

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So there was this really cool color scale.

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And I don't remember the year.

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It must've been 1800 something called

the Lava Bond scale, which this dude

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made these little bitty glass plates

that are kind of like stained glass, but

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they were stained the different types

of colors of that beer malt could be.

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And then he would just hold up the

little glass plate next to the beer.

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And then he was like, all right, this is

Lava Bond 10 or some arbitrary number.

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But we actually still use that Lava

Bond scale from this guy that made these

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little glass plates from back in the day.

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Bobby Fleshman: And if

anyone's familiar with.

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Spectra spectra and anything

where you where you tried to break

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down like the colors of what you

see, in any image, you know, you

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can't define it by one frequency.

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So this was this really was a way of

very crudely grouping beer colors, but

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you can find different beers that your

to your eyes look very, very different

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in color have the same love of on.

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so we've, we've really modernized that

and added more, more dimensions to that.

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But.

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But that was a beginning.

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Gary Arndt: So beers have

like a spectral fingerprint.

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They do.

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Absolutely.

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Bobby Fleshman: Tricolor.

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Gary Arndt: So it's like a star.

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Bobby Fleshman: Yeah, exactly.

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Tricolor stimulus method

methodology is how it's done today.

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And no one ever sees, they always see

SRM or EBC or Lovabon, there's all

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these different ways you can just.

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Yeah, Lovabon is

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Allison McCoy Fleshman: a really good one.

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Really old school.

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You

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Bobby Fleshman: can describe, you can

describe colors and people look for that.

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Usually they don't.

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They usually care more about ABV and IBUs.

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In

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Allison McCoy Fleshman: the gorgeousness

of what quality is in beer, you have to

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make the exact same product every time,

but with the ingredients always changing

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based on seasonal fluctuations and such.

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And so to know what your beer color,

the end product is and have a way

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to like, like, I don't know, as a,

as a target to match it, those kinds

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of number systems really do help.

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Bobby Fleshman: They do.

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And we're moderate.

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And just in the last couple of years,

brewers have been doing what's called

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hot steep methods and they take

little handfuls of malt and they make

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little bitty batches of what will

become their ultimately their beer.

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And from that they can take all

the question, all the unknowing of

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what's happened upstream and they

can determine what the color will

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be of the finished beer and they

can adjust the quantities and so

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Allison McCoy Fleshman: on.

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And let me just give a

personal shout out to my child.

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How much I hate.

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the hot steep method because you will

come to me and hand me a glass of

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beer and you're like, hey, try this.

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And I'm of course thinking it's

something that's been fermented and

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such, but it's his hot steep method.

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And so it's this weird, watery, murky

mix of pre ingredients, for lack of

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a better phrase, that haven't done

any of the fermentation or malting

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or, boiling or anything like that.

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And it's this weird, complex, And

he's like, can't you taste it?

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It's great.

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And I was like, why are

you doing this to me?

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You got to

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Bobby Fleshman: taste through the sugar to

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Allison McCoy Fleshman: see what's there.

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I do not have that skill yet.

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So anyway, so whoever

invented that method.

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Gary Arndt: Would I be right in

assuming that a very large brewer

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would probably have equipment

on site to measure the color?

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And I'm guessing as a smaller brewery,

you probably are not doing that.

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Bobby Fleshman: No, we actually do

have access to ways of doing that,

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but it's about resources and time.

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The, the really, really large breweries,

they have beer delivered by real car,

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you know, by the, by the hundreds.

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And what those guys will do is in

real time, they'll be able to take

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a sample, a representative sample,

and they'll be able to run all their

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analysis while the The train car

waits, and if it doesn't pass, it goes

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to a ranch, goes to a cattle ranch.

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So that, that's a whole other level,

but yes, you can do it for the

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Allison McCoy Fleshman:

cows to drink and eat.

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Not exactly.

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I mean, the difference

between these cattle ranches,

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Bobby Fleshman: it's amazing.

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The difference between a malting and

a feed barley or, or a feed malt.

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It is incredible when you think about

it, does this one decision is made

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and then this, all this grain goes

to these cattle as opposed to a beer.

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Maybe there's another brewer that

will take it, but yeah, these

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decisions are made far, far up.

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Gary Arndt: so we talked about color

and color and here's one of the

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weird things is like sometimes you

really want a clean beer and like you

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mentioned, sometimes you have a hazy

beer or sometimes you have a dark beer.

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it isn't necessarily like you're

trying to achieve any certain goal.

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It's sort of just an arbitrary,

this is what we're shooting for.

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This is what we're going to go

for now is to mention that because

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of these, differences in color,

the, the creation of light beers

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glassware kind of developed around it.

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So you could actually see the beer.

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You guys serve beers

in particular glasses.

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I've noticed that if I order, you

know, one at five 47 from you,

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which is your signature double IPA

comes in a particular type of glass.

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I get a, one of your loggers comes

in a different type of glass.

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If I get a Pilsner, it comes

in a different type of glass.

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Why?

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Oh.

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Why?

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And why that glass?

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First of all.

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Is it arbitrary?

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Bobby Fleshman: Well.

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That you.

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Apologies to our staff, first of all,

because we are obsessed, obsessed with

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glassware and it, it's kind of difficult

for them to deal with once in a while.

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Allison McCoy Fleshman: Although, also,

we should, they should say thank you to us

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because we don't go as extreme as we can.

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Right.

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so we've reduced it down

to just four glasses.

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four different glasses.

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When we started, when we first opened

the brewery, we had 10 different glasses.

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Now we've got it down to four.

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So it's manageable.

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Well, really five.

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But Gary's right.

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So if you order a German lager from

us, we want that to be nice and cold.

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We want it to be clear and gorgeous.

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And we want it to have a

really nice head on top.

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So we will typically put that in what's

called a Seidel, which is you're familiar

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with the big beer steins, like the glass.

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mug type thing that's really big.

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Half liter.

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Half liter.

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Yep.

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That's called a cidal.

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Technically a stein would be earthenware.

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So the, the thick ceramic and that's

so you don't have any light struck

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because loggers, particularly the light

loggers are very sensitive to sunlight.

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And so they will go through a

reaction that'll typically yield

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the same kind of molecule that

skunks bless us with on occasion.

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And so we want to keep those suckers

the beers protected from light.

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And so that's why I.

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earthenware stein would be best for those.

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But our glassware is

actually really thick.

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So that's going to help insulate

and maintain the temperature longer.

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It's also going to have a tall

spot at the, at the top so that

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the head can be retained longer.

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Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

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This feels like a topic to do in person

rather than a podcast because people

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want to have it in front of them.

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They want to be able to smell and,

and, see these, these different

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effects that these different glasses.

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Allison McCoy Fleshman: But much

like for folks in the wine, world.

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:

You have a different glass for the reds

and the whites and the reds will typically

390

:

have and the same thing with IPAs.

391

:

You want to focus some of those

aromatics, which are the molecules

392

:

that come to your nose really easily.

393

:

And so for the IPAs, we'll want a

glass that's going to concentrate

394

:

those smells because that's where

the most of the experience of

395

:

the beer is going to come from.

396

:

Whereas the ales, you don't

really, they don't really

397

:

have that much smell to offer.

398

:

That's much more in the flavor

or in the taste with your tongue.

399

:

And so those come in these like much wider

mouth, big old like mug and they come

400

:

Bobby Fleshman: in these glasses.

401

:

Usually they're called nonics or no

nicks and they don't stick together

402

:

when you stack them and they, and,

and they don't get scratched except

403

:

on the, the outer bulge of that

Nick or that of that nonic section.

404

:

And we have those and they still make

those and they're, they're sort of an

405

:

upgrade to what are called shaker pints.

406

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Which are

just like the angled, traditional

407

:

American, never drink a beer from that.

408

:

That's what for water is for.

409

:

Oh my gosh.

410

:

We

411

:

Bobby Fleshman: can go

on and on about that.

412

:

I get so mad when I see

413

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman:

beer served in those things.

414

:

Look

415

:

Bobby Fleshman: for the

cheater glasses out there.

416

:

There are often these shaker pints

you get your beers in and the

417

:

bottom two ounces is full of glass.

418

:

So you're not getting as

much as you think you are.

419

:

That happens.

420

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: But one

thing I can say is never under any

421

:

circumstances should you have a

beer in a frozen or frosted glass.

422

:

Cheers.

423

:

that is just so disrespectful to the beer.

424

:

Or why?

425

:

Why?

426

:

This is a good question.

427

:

So cold things well, when you warm

something up, the molecules are going

428

:

to leave and come to your nose faster.

429

:

And so if you keep it cold, basically

what you're doing is you're subduing

430

:

the beer's ability to get to your nose.

431

:

And so if you've got any off

flavors or anything that you

432

:

want to hide, keep it colder.

433

:

If you want to really

experience it, warm it up a bit.

434

:

So if you, If you chill the

glass, you're actually covering up

435

:

something associated with the beer.

436

:

Bobby Fleshman: In my business hat

says, drink it however you want it,

437

:

except make sure the glass is clean.

438

:

That's my biggest thing.

439

:

Your lines are clean.

440

:

The glass is clean.

441

:

If you choose to have it out

of a frozen mug, I've gone

442

:

through that evolution myself.

443

:

Then knock yourself out.

444

:

But yeah, I personally don't prefer it,

but definitely make sure your glass,

445

:

the glasses are clean and free of

detergent and that your lines are clean,

446

:

that you're getting your beer from.

447

:

Gary Arndt: We didn't talk

about this before the show, but

448

:

let me ask you, temperature.

449

:

Yeah.

450

:

Do you, I mean, there are certain,

you mentioned that there's some beers

451

:

are in some countries are served warm.

452

:

Some are served cold.

453

:

How do you determine the temperature

at which a beer is to come

454

:

Bobby Fleshman: through the tab?

455

:

I rely first on, we build our styles

based, most of our styles, our beers

456

:

are based on styles that are historical.

457

:

So I rely on history there.

458

:

Most of these beers the recipes

have evolved according to what

459

:

temperatures were they had access to.

460

:

And so I follow that lead.

461

:

And once in a while we'll tweak

on that, but we start with what's

462

:

known to be a good lager temp.

463

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: And there really

aren't a huge variety of temperatures

464

:

that we, we really just go with two.

465

:

I mean, there's the ale temperature

and the lager temperatures and

466

:

the ale temperatures for our

cast condition, we'll put it at

467

:

cellar temperatures, which is 54.

468

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah, we'll,

we'll put it about 54.

469

:

50 in the room.

470

:

By the time it hits the

glass, it's about 53 or 4.

471

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah.

472

:

And so it's quote warm, but it's, it's

not warm, like room temperature warm.

473

:

It's just going to be much warmer

than the really cold loggers.

474

:

Bobby Fleshman: And we do

not keep our, our lager.

475

:

If you want to call it our lager

cooler we don't keep that that cold.

476

:

There are, there are bars that will run.

477

:

There's at 32 degrees.

478

:

You can, you can bring beer down to,

if it has 5 percent alcohol, you can

479

:

bring it down to at least 25 degrees.

480

:

but.

481

:

You do see sub freezing.

482

:

You see sub 32 out there.

483

:

We don't do that.

484

:

We do something like 38

and then we hit your glass.

485

:

It's about 40 to 41.

486

:

Gary Arndt: let's end this

discussion with something that Alison

487

:

brought up about foam and a head.

488

:

You mentioned protein,

which actually made sense.

489

:

Cause I used to have a coral reef

aquarium and we had a pro I had

490

:

to have a protein skimmer for it.

491

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Oh,

492

:

Gary Arndt: And you just basically,

I mean, it wasn't as enticing as a,

493

:

the head on a beer, but it was kind

of gross actually and smelled, but

494

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman:

protein fish water.

495

:

Yum.

496

:

Gary Arndt: but you see

this on the sea, right?

497

:

If you're ever on the coast of the ocean,

you'll, you'll sometimes see sea foam.

498

:

So I never really put two and two

together that that's kind of what.

499

:

Basically was, was on a beer, but I

suppose the question is some beers

500

:

have different types of heads, right?

501

:

Is that a decision or is that

just an effect of what happens?

502

:

And the other thing, the staff who

works here, some of them are very,

503

:

very fussy about trying, you know,

this is part of the ceremony of

504

:

trying to get a perfect head of beer.

505

:

I love those.

506

:

They will literally take photos

and try to create, you know,

507

:

the, you know, the perfect,

508

:

Bobby Fleshman: I like, I liken it to

at a restaurant, you plate the food

509

:

according to what it is supposed to

look like at any good restaurant.

510

:

Same with beer.

511

:

It's got to be in the right

glass to the right level.

512

:

The right amount of foam is

going to be absolutely pristine

513

:

in terms of cleanliness.

514

:

So

515

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: one

of the, so like our, public

516

:

health client, Iris Stout.

517

:

So that one, it's a nitro beer.

518

:

It's got this beautiful creamy head to it.

519

:

The bubbles are teeny, teeny tiny

because they're nitrogen based bubbles

520

:

as opposed to CO2 based bubbles.

521

:

But the thing is, is that if they don't

pour it, The perfect pour involves no big

522

:

one big bubble and if they don't hit it

just right with the last way that they

523

:

use the nozzle because you can either

pull the nitro tap towards you or away

524

:

from you and that's how you control.

525

:

It's like putting your thumb on the

526

:

Bobby Fleshman: water hose.

527

:

Yeah.

528

:

That's how I describe it and how

you put your thumb in that water.

529

:

And then there's like, if you push it

530

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: away from you,

then that's the finishing touch foam.

531

:

And if you don't do it perfectly timed,

you get this one big bubble in the middle.

532

:

And it's just like so devastating

when you're pouring this perfect pint

533

:

and you're like, yes, here it goes.

534

:

And then you get, damn

it, you got the bubble.

535

:

Bobby Fleshman: And Guinness, as good

as they are, Guinness is really good

536

:

about certifying their servers for

almost everywhere their beer is seen.

537

:

In as good as they are I see them

getting butchered all the time, Guinness

538

:

itself gets butchered all the time.

539

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Although one of

our staff can draw a shamrock with the

540

:

last foam nozzle on the nitro beers.

541

:

She's incredible.

542

:

She's just like an artist when

it comes to the fancy, it's kind

543

:

of like the coffee, the latte,

where they make the little cream.

544

:

Look like flowers or something like that.

545

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

546

:

We're going to mix technology with the

past and do 3d printing or what's that

547

:

laser etching on the foam as it goes out.

548

:

Gary Arndt: That's happening now.

549

:

I've been to several places in Ireland,

including the Guinness brewery and

550

:

a couple other places where they

have, you know people who have been

551

:

trained and they show you how to pour

a Guinness properly and everything and

552

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman:

you got to wait for it.

553

:

Gary Arndt: Yeah.

554

:

It's, it's not something that

happens right away, but no.

555

:

But you don't have a training.

556

:

This is just sort of an organic thing.

557

:

It seems like with a lot of the staff

here where they've just sort of developed.

558

:

Bobby Fleshman: It depends on whether

I've shadowed them enough or not because

559

:

they get nervous when I'm around because

I'm kind of a freak show about it.

560

:

He calls me

561

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: out all the time.

562

:

It frustrates me to no end because I

still, I mean, some boards, I want some

563

:

beers I can pour really well, but then

others, I just avoid pouring because I

564

:

know Bobby's going to give me the side.

565

:

I be like, that's not right.

566

:

Maybe

567

:

Gary Arndt: this is, this is something

for a future episode, but I've

568

:

always likened that element of beer

to the opening a bottle of wine.

569

:

Like there's a ceremony

involved, a certain tradition.

570

:

And yeah, you can have wine in a box

or do something else and you, I've seen

571

:

arguments that maybe it doesn't affect

the taste or anything like that and that's

572

:

fine, but it's kind of part of what you

get when you get a bottle of wine and

573

:

when you get a beer, having that foam

and the pouring of it is sort of part

574

:

of the ceremony of, of ordering a beer.

575

:

Yeah.

576

:

The

577

:

Bobby Fleshman: theme was

tasting with your eyes of this

578

:

podcast and those and so on.

579

:

And I think that that being the first.

580

:

Sip, so to speak.

581

:

Yeah, the foam matters.

582

:

Well, and it

583

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: matters to the

last zip too, because you can tell really

584

:

clean glassware by what's called lacing.

585

:

So the foam

586

:

Bobby Fleshman: also bubbles

on the side of your glass.

587

:

Well, that's what lacing

588

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: is.

589

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

590

:

They're related.

591

:

Yeah.

592

:

Oh, yes.

593

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Oh, bring it.

594

:

Anyway.

595

:

So when you have an empty

glass, you basically have these

596

:

rings of foam that remain.

597

:

If the glass is really clean, you

have much more distinct rings of foam.

598

:

And if the glass is dirty, it

almost disappears instantly.

599

:

Bobby Fleshman: You can also

tell who's drinking faster.

600

:

By the spacing of those lines,

601

:

Gary Arndt: the glassware we're, we're

going to, we're going to have a separate

602

:

episode where we're going to talk about

bubbles and carbonation, but just to

603

:

address it here, glassware obviously

has a lot to do with the bubbles

604

:

because the activation sites for it

are going to all be found in the glass.

605

:

Do you, have you noticed that there are

certain types of glassware that are more

606

:

conducive to having bubbles escape in the

607

:

Bobby Fleshman: beer?

608

:

Well, we, and I'm

kicking this idea around.

609

:

We don't have any etched glass where

I think it'd be cool if we did.

610

:

You see this a lot of times where you'll

see a logo of a, whatever, a brewery or

611

:

bar the bottom of that glass and they're

teeny tiny little scratches and they, they

612

:

serve as what are called nucleation sites.

613

:

and that's places where the

pressure drops by the folding.

614

:

The mall, Allison's the physical chemist.

615

:

She can explain it, but

basically you're, you're driving

616

:

CO2 bubbles out of solution.

617

:

And then once they break free

at that point, they rise.

618

:

And when they rise, they get bigger.

619

:

And when they get bigger,

they rise faster and so forth.

620

:

So you can actually create

a cascade effect of bubbles

621

:

replenishing fully all the time.

622

:

We don't have that.

623

:

That'd be really cool.

624

:

But to your point, if

we're going to pour a.

625

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Actually, no,

because if we had that, they would

626

:

be more likely in our loggers and

our loggers go in the steins, which

627

:

are dimpled steins, which you can't

really see through the mini way.

628

:

So only in the Hilde,

only in the Pilsner glass.

629

:

Bobby Fleshman: Right.

630

:

I, it, yeah, it all depends

on what your goals are.

631

:

If you want that head to be there,

regardless of someone's taking it.

632

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Only

you would want the bubbles to

633

:

cascade the way they're supposed

to when we can't even see it.

634

:

You're like, yeah, but

they are there, I promise.

635

:

Bobby Fleshman: Maybe, but

there's aromatic effects too.

636

:

But I think that she's, when we're

thinking about a Bison, we're thinking

637

:

about a lot of foam and it'll, it'll stay

for the high levels of protein involved.

638

:

You'll see a half of bites

and foam stack stay longer.

639

:

So you need, you need more room for

those, for the foam for like a half

640

:

of bites and you don't need nearly

so much with your English beers.

641

:

You need about one finger's

worth of room for those.

642

:

So there's, there's two extremes there.

643

:

Gary Arndt: All right.

644

:

So we're going to wrap this episode up.

645

:

You're at a bar, you order a beer visually

before you taste it, before you smell it.

646

:

What should someone be looking for

either as a good sign or a bad sign?

647

:

Bobby Fleshman: I'll take the bad.

648

:

Yep.

649

:

Okay.

650

:

If there, if it's, there's two

ways, you know, three ways right

651

:

off the bat, if it's poured to the

absolute brim, that's generally not.

652

:

In fact, almost, I would say never.

653

:

Is that a good thing?

654

:

Even though there's maybe value seen

number two, you see little bubbles on

655

:

the side of the inside of that glass.

656

:

That means there's, there's impurities.

657

:

It wasn't clean prior.

658

:

Number three, I guess

I'll stop with those two.

659

:

I think I'm missing one, but.

660

:

That'll work.

661

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah.

662

:

No foam is bad.

663

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

664

:

No foam is really good.

665

:

Bubbles on the side of

the glass, very bad.

666

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman: But I

think the other thing, so what,

667

:

what should you be looking for?

668

:

You should be looking for, about a thumb's

width of foam to two thumbs width There

669

:

are two fingers with the foam depending

on the style of beer, but you should

670

:

have at least a minimum of fingers width

of foam around the top of the glass.

671

:

Preferably all of that

foam is, homogenous.

672

:

So there's not like one big ass bubble

on the side and a bunch of little bitty

673

:

bubbles that should all be about the same.

674

:

The other thing you should look for is

that depending on the beer style, it's

675

:

either gorgeously clear Or, it's the same

consistency throughout the whole thing.

676

:

basically that the, I don't know,

that the beer looks like something

677

:

that you would want to take a

picture of and hopefully you do.

678

:

Bobby Fleshman: And not to

judge, but avoid shaker pints

679

:

and avoid the frozen glass.

680

:

No frozen glass.

681

:

But not to judge.

682

:

Gary Arndt: So, and, and for a finger's

width, is that metric or imperial?

683

:

Allison McCoy Fleshman:

Oh, that's a good question.

684

:

depends on where you're from.

685

:

Gary Arndt: All right.

686

:

Well, I think that concludes another

episode of respecting the beer.

687

:

Join us next week for another episode.

688

:

And until then you can go to our Patreon

page or our Facebook group, the links

689

:

to which can be found in the show notes.

690

:

Go team.

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Respecting the Beer
A podcast for the science, history, and joy of beer

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