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Episode 98

The Sierra Nevada Interview Post Game Show

After having interviewed one of the most prolific craft brewers, Ken Grossman, Bobby Fleshman and Joel Hermansen breakdown how they feel after interviewing their hero, sharing a few more personal stories about Sierra Nevada.

Gary Arndt and Producer Dave try Sierra Nevada "Green" for the first time.

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--

TIMELINE

00:00 Ken Grossman Postgame Show

00:51 Recapping the Ken Grossman Interview

03:18 The Impact of Ken Grossman on Beer Culture

05:36 Personal Connections

08:42 First Taste of Sierra Nevada Ever?

27:19 Diverse Beer Offerings at McFleshman's

28:00 Chasing the Challenge

28:32 Bobby's Beer Inspired by Sierra Nevada

32:34 Ken Grossman's Influence and Legacy

40:09 Post-Show Wrap-Up

--

CREDITS

Hosts:

Bobby Fleshman - https://www.mcfleshmans.com/

Allison Fleshman -https://www.instagram.com/mcfleshmans/

Joel Hermansen

Gary Ardnt - https://everything-everywhere.com/everything-everywhere-daily-podcast/

Music by Sarah Lynn Huss - https://www.facebook.com/kevin.huss.52/

Recorded & Produced by David Kalsow - https://davidkalsow.com/

Brought to you by McFleshman's Brewing Co

Transcript
Gary Arndt:

Hello everyone.

Gary Arndt:

My name is Gary Arndt.

Gary Arndt:

Welcome to the Ken Grossman Postgame Show.

Gary Arndt:

Wrap up with me Mr. Joel Hermanson, the man who goes to bed every night with Sierra Nevada pajamas.

Gary Arndt:

Just learned this

Bobby Fleshman:

Underoos,

Joel Hermansen:

right?

Joel Hermansen:

I I, I am absolutely proud to carry that, that banner.

Gary Arndt:

Um, maybe they should look into that as a, an actual product.

Gary Arndt:

And the man who I just found out is guilty of breaking the 10th commandment, Mr. Bobby Fleshman, who covets the kegs of Sarah Nevada

Gary Arndt:

stalking.

Bobby Fleshman:

Is stalking one of those?

Gary Arndt:

I I don't think stalking is actually against a commandment.

Gary Arndt:

Okay.

Gary Arndt:

So I think you're good to go.

Gary Arndt:

You can.

Gary Arndt:

Okay.

Gary Arndt:

So I'm just

Bobby Fleshman:

Stalking,

Gary Arndt:

uh, but I am sure it's covetous of, of something.

Gary Arndt:

So we've been doing this podcast a while now.

Gary Arndt:

We have talked to a great many people and you know, the, the question Joel always ask is, who's under your Mount Rushmore?

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

We just talked to Mount Rushmore.

Gary Arndt:

Everyone always says is Ken Grossman.

Gary Arndt:

So, uh, this is is one of the biggest interviews we could probably do in the world of beer and brewing.

Gary Arndt:

Uh, so what, what did you get out of it?

Gary Arndt:

What did you learn?

Bobby Fleshman:

First of all, I wanna say how humble he was and how understated

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Because he, he doesn't acknowledge, I mean, he does on some level, but he could do a lot more.

Bobby Fleshman:

He, he could have his people and throw his benjamins out, whatever that means in beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

Right.

Bobby Fleshman:

But he, I

Gary Arndt:

think you'll find that people that are in, that are well known in a certain niche.

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

Like, you go down the street and ask people who Ken Grossmans, they don't know who he is.

Bobby Fleshman:

Right.

Gary Arndt:

They, it's only people within a certain niche.

Gary Arndt:

And as, as someone who is kind of well known in a certain niche, um.

Gary Arndt:

It's, it's very easy to be humble when you realize that most people still don't know who you are.

Bobby Fleshman:

That's a good point.

Bobby Fleshman:

We're pretty close to it.

Gary Arndt:

I give, give that, I mean, for Joel.

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

I mean, he was, you know, kind, uh, imagine the girls at Shaa Stadium when the Beatles were there.

Gary Arndt:

That was Joel.

Joel Hermansen:

That's so true.

Gary Arndt:

He's screaming, he's crying.

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

Despite that fact.

Joel Hermansen:

'cause I don't disagree with you despite that fact.

Joel Hermansen:

I thought I carried myself with a measure of dignity and grace.

Joel Hermansen:

That was surprising to everyone.

Joel Hermansen:

You did.

Gary Arndt:

You're gonna go home to your wife and it's like, oh my God.

Gary Arndt:

Oh my God.

Gary Arndt:

Oh

Bobby Fleshman:

my God.

Bobby Fleshman:

I remember I,

Joel Hermansen:

I'm gonna go like this.

Joel Hermansen:

And for those of you who are with us, I'm flapping my hands.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

We were practicing last night.

Bobby Fleshman:

We were doing, going over the notes and distilling this down.

Bobby Fleshman:

And his wife, Maryanne came down and, and was saying, guys, you gotta focus on five questions.

Bobby Fleshman:

'cause I, what I read from that was, Joel, you're gonna, you're gonna go off and it's gonna be in two hours later, we're gonna be passed the first 20% of this thing.

Joel Hermansen:

Right.

Bobby Fleshman:

So,

Joel Hermansen:

right.

Joel Hermansen:

And, and she, she was, and, and to, in her defense, she's a food journalist and she interviews people all the time.

Joel Hermansen:

She interviews people of notoriety and, and significance.

Joel Hermansen:

And,

Bobby Fleshman:

and Ken doesn't have four hours for us, so we gotta make

Joel Hermansen:

God, I wish he did.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

I mean, I, I would, I I would love to bring him here and, and on a Wednesday and see how he, you

Bobby Fleshman:

know, I

Joel Hermansen:

mean,

Bobby Fleshman:

when that, when that brewhouse makes the tour, who knows?

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's gonna happen.

Joel Hermansen:

So I, I actually told my, my, my cousin and my lifelong friend Sam Manchester, who is a, an editor for the New York Times.

Joel Hermansen:

I texted him today, I said.

Joel Hermansen:

You know, historically you're the most famous person that I know.

Joel Hermansen:

And he said, that's really sad.

Joel Hermansen:

And um, and I said, but today that streak ends.

Joel Hermansen:

'cause I get to talk to Ken Grossman.

Joel Hermansen:

And he goes, holy shit, that's a big deal.

Joel Hermansen:

So, I mean, even to, you know, an East coast, um, journalist slash editor of the New York Times, he even knew what was at stake.

David Kalsow:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

so, you know, Gary, , Gary

Bobby Fleshman:

on the business comments

Gary Arndt:

one, I've met quasi famous people before.

Gary Arndt:

Yeah,

Bobby Fleshman:

yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

Am I one of them?

Gary Arndt:

No, you are not.

Joel Hermansen:

Shit.

Gary Arndt:

And second, I am just not at the same level of beer and brew as you guys are

Bobby Fleshman:

nerd.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

Um, most of what I have learned about this business and this industry has come from being at Mc Fleshman.

Gary Arndt:

Like before that I can't really say I, I knew a whole lot about it.

Gary Arndt:

So this is something for you that has been years in the making.

Gary Arndt:

And when you guys said, oh, or David's like, yeah, we lined up Ken Grossman.

Gary Arndt:

You were like, oh man.

Gary Arndt:

I was like, okay.

Bobby Fleshman:

Right, right.

David Kalsow:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

And I don't know if it was in the making, it was just in the 'cause in the making implies there are steps get to getting to where we are.

Bobby Fleshman:

This is, this is, this has years of background.

Bobby Fleshman:

Right.

Bobby Fleshman:

And it, and then when he drops, so he walks outta the room, so I can't give him the accolades.

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

I mean, where, where did he go?

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

Like, is he making a sandwich?

Joel Hermansen:

Like, what's happening?

Bobby Fleshman:

So the reason we did the interview at all is David.

Bobby Fleshman:

I didn't, I, Charlie said, sure, I'll see what I can do.

Bobby Fleshman:

And I'm sure that he kinda rolled his eyes at it, but

Joel Hermansen:

no, I think the verne's malted milk balls helped

Bobby Fleshman:

the malted milk balls.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Maybe, yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

That was a

Joel Hermansen:

factor.

Bobby Fleshman:

But, uh, it, it's one of those moments where like, after we've had this interview, now we'll be able to say, Hey, Ken Grossman's been on the show, and anyone of em might wanna be on that on, on the next episode For that reason.

Bobby Fleshman:

I,

Gary Arndt:

no, it's a, it's a great calling card.

Gary Arndt:

Uh, I used to do a podcast called This Week Travel.

Gary Arndt:

We did it for a little David.

Gary Arndt:

You walked

Bobby Fleshman:

outta the room, we gave you

Gary Arndt:

a dime

Bobby Fleshman:

because

Gary Arndt:

you're the

Bobby Fleshman:

only reason this is happening.

Gary Arndt:

What it did is open the doors and we were able to get people who were big in the travel industry, like Pauline Fromer and Samantha Brown on the show.

Gary Arndt:

And once those people on the show, it's very easy to get kind of anyone else.

Gary Arndt:

Um, and I think that that is what getting a, a guest of this caliber can kind of do.

Joel Hermansen:

Right.

Bobby Fleshman:

And not to take away from what we've had.

Bobby Fleshman:

We've had some level nine

Joel Hermansen:

we've had Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

Right.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh, guests on

Joel Hermansen:

here.

Joel Hermansen:

John Keeling, Mitch Steele, Charlie Bamforth.

Bobby Fleshman:

I mean, Charlie alone is himself level 10.

Joel Hermansen:

Right.

Bobby Fleshman:

But he doesn't brew or make the beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

He doesn't have his name on like Sierra Nevada.

Bobby Fleshman:

So there's that exposure that Ken Grossman brings to this story.

Bobby Fleshman:

But where, where Charlie's all about the science.

Bobby Fleshman:

You have Ken, that's all about the technology and the two of them together, they're unstoppable.

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

At this point.

Joel Hermansen:

And like I, I know for example, my, my phone, which I know this will be surprising to our listeners, my phone is not that active, but my phone was blowing up.

Joel Hermansen:

Today are, is today the day you're talking to Ken Grossman?

Joel Hermansen:

Oh my gosh.

Joel Hermansen:

You're talking to Ken Grossman.

Joel Hermansen:

Holy crap.

Joel Hermansen:

You're talking to Ken Grossman.

Joel Hermansen:

I know.

Joel Hermansen:

And normally these people don't even reach out to me to say, Hey, how you doing?

Joel Hermansen:

But today of all days,

Bobby Fleshman:

so, so I'm in, I'm in pick and save, grabbing a six pack of, of green before, is

Joel Hermansen:

this when you forgot the 12 pack?

Bobby Fleshman:

When I forgot the 12 pack of celebration in the church, which

Joel Hermansen:

now you have a pack one, a 12

Bobby Fleshman:

pack, one of

Joel Hermansen:

Can

Bobby Fleshman:

you

Joel Hermansen:

bring that over

Bobby Fleshman:

to my house sometime

Joel Hermansen:

and we'll drink it, play guitar

Bobby Fleshman:

and do that.

Bobby Fleshman:

Um, as I'm doing this, I, I felt like it, it was, it was so disconnected from, from where I'm going, you know, I'm walking out of pick and save in somewhere Wisconsin with the six pack of Gr Sierra Green.

Joel Hermansen:

Mm-hmm.

Bobby Fleshman:

And I'm going to be involved in an interview with the guy who made it.

Bobby Fleshman:

It just felt really weird.

Joel Hermansen:

It did.

Joel Hermansen:

It, it's been ki it's been surreal the entire day actually,

Bobby Fleshman:

to drink it while he's giving the interview.

Joel Hermansen:

Right.

Joel Hermansen:

We drank.

Joel Hermansen:

Several, uh, celebration ales

Bobby Fleshman:

for the record.

Bobby Fleshman:

I think it was the 12 pack now destroyed.

Bobby Fleshman:

Is, is

Joel Hermansen:

gone.

Joel Hermansen:

No

Bobby Fleshman:

more.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

David Kalsow:

I'm David Kalsow podcast producer on the mic for the first time in the main feed.

David Kalsow:

Finished it.

David Kalsow:

Let's be clear, you made me get you a celebration ale.

Joel Hermansen:

Twice.

David Kalsow:

Twice, right?

David Kalsow:

Yeah.

David Kalsow:

Just a text celebration question mark.

David Kalsow:

And I'm like,

Bobby Fleshman:

is good.

Bobby Fleshman:

You get me one.

Joel Hermansen:

Right?

Joel Hermansen:

Well, and I tried to get it to Aaron.

Joel Hermansen:

I was holding it up during the podcast.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

And Aaron, I was wondering

Bobby Fleshman:

where that was, where that was going.

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh, well

Joel Hermansen:

I could see on the, on the video that Aaron was back behind the bar.

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah, yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

At lunch.

Joel Hermansen:

So I was holding up,

David Kalsow:

he looked confused when he saw it.

David Kalsow:

He was just like, what?

Joel Hermansen:

I mean, I don't really, how confusing this is.

Joel Hermansen:

Uh, and again, I'm holding up a celebration now, pointing at my head.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

Um, and

Bobby Fleshman:

so in summary, this podcast is a love affair with celebration.

Joel Hermansen:

Well, it's, it's actually a love affair with Sierra Nevada.

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah, because I, I remember, you know, back in the old days when beer was not as readily available as it is today, and, you know, a, a, a good friend of the podcast, a good friend of the brewery, Christophe, um, you know, we, we used to take pride in, oh my gosh, we got this item from Hinterland in, in Green Bay, and we got this Oso product from Plover.

Joel Hermansen:

And, and you know, it, it, it was a, it was a cool deal to get stuff that you couldn't get in your town in 2005, 2007, 2008, et cetera.

Joel Hermansen:

Now we don't have that problem.

Joel Hermansen:

You walk through, any liquor store, any grocery store, and there's, there's beer from across the country, across the, the state.

Joel Hermansen:

And it's no longer an issue, but it used to be a big deal.

Joel Hermansen:

And when we got, for example, in 2006, and this is where I want to kind of start this conversation about early Sierra Nevada memories, when we got that Anniversary Ale mailed to us in 2006, that was a huge deal.

Joel Hermansen:

It was a huge deal when I was able to bring a six pack of it back in 2008 on the plane.

Joel Hermansen:

And, you know, we, we, I, he picked us up from the airport actually, and we immediately,

Joel Hermansen:

whisked away the six pack to the, to the freezer so that we could drink it quickly, that was a huge deal.

Joel Hermansen:

Mm-hmm.

Joel Hermansen:

So I'm gonna ask you this question and, and I, I already know some of the answer 'cause we've already talked a little bit about it.

Joel Hermansen:

Mm-hmm.

Joel Hermansen:

What was the first time that you had this guy?

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah, so Sierra

Joel Hermansen:

Green right here.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

Sierra Greens,

Bobby Fleshman:

uh,

Joel Hermansen:

I don't even call it pale a I

Bobby Fleshman:

call it green.

Bobby Fleshman:

No, I mean, I think that's totally fair.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's funny, they, they used to use a, a malt on the West coast, uh, from Great Western malting and, and one of the bags is blue colored, so they'll always use blue, blue malt.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's funny how on the West coast they just describe these things as colors, but, uh, anyway, uh, in Oklahoma you can't refrigerate beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

Or you couldn't when I lived there.

Bobby Fleshman:

You

Joel Hermansen:

and I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go on record as criticizing Oklahoma for

Bobby Fleshman:

that.

Bobby Fleshman:

No, go for it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

I I, that's the dumbest fucking thing.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's like saying you can't cook food.

Bobby Fleshman:

No, because they're afraid.

Joel Hermansen:

I, I wasn't gonna go quite

Bobby Fleshman:

as far as Gary, but Gary's, it's the craziest thing.

Bobby Fleshman:

Like you, because there, the argument is you might drink it and get drunk before you drive home, when in reality they can reality, they can buy like whiskey and drink that before they drive home.

Bobby Fleshman:

But that's neither here nor nor there.

Bobby Fleshman:

Hold it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

Okay.

Bobby Fleshman:

You can refrigerated it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Where At the liquor store or at the grocery store period.

Bobby Fleshman:

If it's above 3.2%.

Joel Hermansen:

Oh, that 3.2?

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's that old blue law.

Bobby Fleshman:

What that, how is that now that's, that's the

Joel Hermansen:

old Minnesota Sunday law.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

No, they still have that in Minnesota.

Joel Hermansen:

It's outrageous.

Gary Arndt:

It's in grocery stores.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

I condemn that law.

Joel Hermansen:

Can I condemn a law?

Joel Hermansen:

Can I

Bobby Fleshman:

just get so go nuts.

Bobby Fleshman:

So I found, I found, 'cause I was getting into craft beer around 98, that's when I was really finally learning something about other than Amber Brock, which was my quote, first craft beer Michelob Amber Brock.

Bobby Fleshman:

But as I discovered, uh, Merchant Du Vin which at some point I'd love to get the, the founders of that distributor who brought in all of these like, uh, Sam Smiths and all these Belgian breweries that we were introduced to were brought in by Merchant Du Vin Uh, and they, they had a, a Sam Smith oatmeal stout, you know, foil top and black glass and everything.

Bobby Fleshman:

It was so beautiful.

Bobby Fleshman:

That was my segue into craft.

Bobby Fleshman:

But the other segue into craft was this dusty bottle, this dusty six pack of Sierra Green.

Bobby Fleshman:

And I, and I bought it and, and unfortunately again, it's warm, it's dusty and blah, blah, blah.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's,

Joel Hermansen:

it should not be dusty,

Bobby Fleshman:

but it's still.

Bobby Fleshman:

It stood out amongst any of its competition.

Bobby Fleshman:

'cause every beer was treated the same way in Oklahoma.

Bobby Fleshman:

And that's a whole other podcast and a whole, whole other conversation.

Joel Hermansen:

A condemnation of Oklahoma.

Bobby Fleshman:

It, it really is.

Bobby Fleshman:

And, and we can go down that well deserved, we can go down that.

Gary Arndt:

This is why people got in jalopy pickup trucks in the 1930s and went to California.

Bobby Fleshman:

Absolutely.

Bobby Fleshman:

Grapes of Wrath.

Bobby Fleshman:

Right?

Gary Arndt:

It had nothing to do with the Dust Bowl and everything to do with beer,

Bobby Fleshman:

but I had this beer and it was extremely bitter.

Bobby Fleshman:

And I think everybody's first impression of, of green was, wow, that's, that's too much.

Bobby Fleshman:

And I didn't feel like it was too much, but I felt like it was sort of, uh, it pushed those boundaries.

Bobby Fleshman:

It, it, it made me think after I finished the glass of it, it made me think about it.

Bobby Fleshman:

And there it turns out, and Vinny talks about this from Russian River, there's a lupulence shift when people drink enough hoppy beers, they start to get over that hump, and then they start to find new balance after they've gone, uh, through having these different examples.

Bobby Fleshman:

But Sierra, can you

David Kalsow:

define Lent for me?

Bobby Fleshman:

Lupin.

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh, so, so basically lupin is the, uh, the gland of a hop.

Bobby Fleshman:

Okay.

Bobby Fleshman:

That produces those, those, uh, precursors to the bittering compounds.

Bobby Fleshman:

Carry on.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

I thought it was the process of becoming a werewolf.

Bobby Fleshman:

What is that?

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh, MULU Lupus.

Bobby Fleshman:

No, that's something, anyway, a lot of Latin being thrown around here.

Bobby Fleshman:

What is that?

David Kalsow:

So,

Bobby Fleshman:

oh, shoot.

David Kalsow:

Agent in the hop, that is the precursor to bitterness.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

And, and Vinny will talk about that.

Bobby Fleshman:

We'll have Vinny on here in a couple weeks.

David Kalsow:

Right, that's true.

Bobby Fleshman:

Like, holy cow, drop the mic and we're done.

Bobby Fleshman:

We're just close the place shut the lights off.

Bobby Fleshman:

25 is where it all ended for us.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Those two extremes though, between the Sam Smith oatmeal stout, the British brewing tradition, and then the West Coast brewing tradition really bookended everything we do here.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then the, the laggers came in by way of a, a trip to the Great American Beer Festival, where I discovered Doppel Bachs and so on and so on.

Bobby Fleshman:

But for me, my most influential moments are Sam Smith and one of Russian River or Sierra Nevada exposures.

Bobby Fleshman:

Those are, those are the.

Bobby Fleshman:

Those are the legs of our chair here.

Joel Hermansen:

The first time I had Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, I had just been hired as a teacher.

Joel Hermansen:

It was, I believe, 1996 December, and there was a staff event at the Paper Valley Hotel and I was drinking a Miller Light.

Joel Hermansen:

'cause that was kind of what I knew coming outta college.

Joel Hermansen:

And Jerry Howard, Jerry, I know you're probably listening.

Joel Hermansen:

Jerry brought me a Sierra Nevada Green and said, you should try this.

Joel Hermansen:

And it was, and I, and I've mentioned this a couple times on the show, this is kind of my metaphor for this type of an event, but it was like that moment in Ouie where.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yep.

Joel Hermansen:

He, he tastes the toasted cheese, you know, two flavors

Gary Arndt:

in, on their own,

Joel Hermansen:

don't make me any sense with the strawberry or whatever he is, he's got going on and, and there's this kind of kaleidoscope of colors and lights and,

Gary Arndt:

and

Joel Hermansen:

that

Gary Arndt:

like, oui, you could have a rat in your hair for all we know.

Joel Hermansen:

True, true.

Joel Hermansen:

And I, running those letters from the air, I knew at that point, I knew at that point that I was done with domestic beers.

Bobby Fleshman:

Mm-hmm.

Joel Hermansen:

I knew that at that point forward I would drink domestic beers, if I was at an event maybe that didn't have these beers.

Joel Hermansen:

But otherwise, I, I, I would then have to make a commitment to move to that universe.

Bobby Fleshman:

And I, I've appreciated the Sierra culture from like you just described, the, the liquid side to drinking this beer, and you get hooked on it.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then you own a brewery and you learn how to brewery.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then you wanna know how you can make something like that, that that kind of balance and that that much flavor.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then when you own the business, you get farther down the pipe and you start to ask yourself, how do I brand something like this?

Bobby Fleshman:

This is something that is iconic, that color is all but trademarked.

Bobby Fleshman:

There, there's something about the branding of this, of this brewing company and, and we talked about their,

Joel Hermansen:

the yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

The label commitment to sustainability and all these things, but their, their branding is so good and they have a lane that they own all their own

Joel Hermansen:

Well, and, and I'll be honest with you, like that's that label.

Joel Hermansen:

I mean, I've always really liked the outdoors.

Joel Hermansen:

I love, hiking and, and things.

Joel Hermansen:

So Sierra Nevada's always been.

Joel Hermansen:

Easy thing for me to explain.

Joel Hermansen:

And I, I remember hiking through the narrows at Zion National Park and going back to the bar slash brew pub with the, with all of the kids and whatnot.

Joel Hermansen:

And you would just hike in like a hundred degree weather for three and a half hours.

Joel Hermansen:

And the only thing I wanted was the Sierra Nevada Green.

Bobby Fleshman:

Mm-hmm.

Joel Hermansen:

And then you get to the brewery.

Joel Hermansen:

And lo and behold, there it is.

Joel Hermansen:

And that is one of my top three beers of all time.

Joel Hermansen:

Mm-hmm.

Joel Hermansen:

In, in large part because of that exact moment.

Joel Hermansen:

You know, and

Bobby Fleshman:

part of it's the liquid and

Joel Hermansen:

part of it's the culture and part of it's, its the culture.

Joel Hermansen:

Looking at the, at the, at the label on the can or the bottle right now.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's iconic,

Joel Hermansen:

right?

Joel Hermansen:

You have this beautiful mountain setting.

Joel Hermansen:

You have this stream.

Bobby Fleshman:

And I won't

Joel Hermansen:

Why Leading perspective wise into it.

Bobby Fleshman:

When we set out to come up with our, our filigree and our big logo, we, we sat down with this, with this logo.

Bobby Fleshman:

We didn't wanna,

Joel Hermansen:

this is the best logo in,

Bobby Fleshman:

but we thought how,

Joel Hermansen:

I don't even think you can, like Nike's really is a really good logo, but like this is right there.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

And this is a person who is, has a high IQ and he's, he's very talented and he's very technical and he, every, every detail he has his thumb on.

Bobby Fleshman:

And I think his family's continuing that tradition right now.

Joel Hermansen:

Do you remember the first time that you had this beer?

Gary Arndt:

I've never had that beer.

David Kalsow:

I too, have not had a

Gary Arndt:

green, um, first syrup.

Gary Arndt:

The first beer from Sierra Nevada I've ever had was two hours ago, and I've, that was a Celebration.

Gary Arndt:

I've never had that beer, ever.

Joel Hermansen:

Okay.

Joel Hermansen:

David, are you able to help us out with that, please?

David Kalsow:

Yes, I will.

David Kalsow:

Go get us one.

Joel Hermansen:

Okay.

Joel Hermansen:

I have the, my opener here.

Joel Hermansen:

Okay.

Joel Hermansen:

Thi this is the most iconic beer in the United, this is,

Gary Arndt:

I've had a Blind Pig.

Gary Arndt:

I've had a, uh, I mean, I've had the other IPAs.

Joel Hermansen:

No, you've, you've had, we've, we've gradually been educating you in beer here at Mc Flesh Men's No, you've had a Heady Topper.

Joel Hermansen:

You've had a Blind Pig.

Joel Hermansen:

You've had a Pliny the Elder You, you have tasted the fruits of, of great beer.

Joel Hermansen:

But this, and David has only brought one.

Joel Hermansen:

Was this the last one?

Gary Arndt:

No, there's more.

Gary Arndt:

I just,

Joel Hermansen:

okay.

David Kalsow:

I don't want a full one.

David Kalsow:

I just wanna taste it.

David Kalsow:

That's why I brought two glasses.

David Kalsow:

You can hate me for that.

David Kalsow:

But

David Kalsow:

lemme tell you, after two celebrations that I've had today,

Joel Hermansen:

and it has to be poured properly and being.

Joel Hermansen:

A level one cone.

Joel Hermansen:

I'm able to do that for you Bobby.

Joel Hermansen:

Neither of these men have had a Sierra Nevada.

David Kalsow:

So

Joel Hermansen:

you talked

David Kalsow:

about it, your first

Gary Arndt:

experience about the celebration is there was a lot of foam.

Joel Hermansen:

Uh,

David Kalsow:

yeah.

David Kalsow:

And it was very

Joel Hermansen:

foam is delightful.

Joel Hermansen:

I

David Kalsow:

you could scoop it

Gary Arndt:

honestly.

Gary Arndt:

So, so

Bobby Fleshman:

is the pale.

Bobby Fleshman:

So it has the same

David Kalsow:

sort

Joel Hermansen:

of integrity.

Joel Hermansen:

So we're gonna interrupt this episode for a, a brief blind tasting.

David Kalsow:

Well, you said the question was, what was your first Sierra Nevada?

David Kalsow:

So here we go pal whale tasting.

David Kalsow:

And here we

Joel Hermansen:

have it live.

Joel Hermansen:

Uh, David Kalsow you're first.

Joel Hermansen:

Oh, joy.

Bobby Fleshman:

That, that is shocking.

Bobby Fleshman:

This is the number one craft beer in in the world.

Bobby Fleshman:

The world,

David Kalsow:

right.

Bobby Fleshman:

In terms of volume,

David Kalsow:

right?

Bobby Fleshman:

I mean,

David Kalsow:

I don't remember like Woodman's and Festival.

David Kalsow:

But I also was like, oh, I was, when I got craft beer, it was like Wisconsin made Man.

David Kalsow:

'cause Local,

Joel Hermansen:

oh yeah,

David Kalsow:

lakefront.

David Kalsow:

So Lakefront

Joel Hermansen:

IPAs is top flight new.

David Kalsow:

I told you about my IPA experience was that it was Goose Island was the first one, and it was so bitter that I was like, I, this must be what all IPAs taste

Bobby Fleshman:

like.

Bobby Fleshman:

When was that?

Bobby Fleshman:

Was it pre oh eight?

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

That must have been pre

Bobby Fleshman:

and bill.

Bobby Fleshman:

Okay, so post oh eight?

David Kalsow:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

That, that's after the acquisition.

Bobby Fleshman:

Who knows how that looks?

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

InBev bought it.

Joel Hermansen:

That's not the, okay.

Joel Hermansen:

Here, here goes David, listeners.

David Kalsow:

Oh, that's much more drinkable of an IPA.

David Kalsow:

So much better.

Joel Hermansen:

Okay.

David Kalsow:

The bitterness is like not prominent,

Joel Hermansen:

but you like it.

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

And, and you Did it have a rattaouile moment for you?

David Kalsow:

If I was coming off drinking a Bud Light,

Gary Arndt:

it came off a celebration

David Kalsow:

a hundred percent.

David Kalsow:

Okay.

David Kalsow:

Having come off the celebration, it's like there's a lot.

David Kalsow:

Similar hop flavors, but they're definitely different.

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

I can see why people would consider this a very good beer.

Gary Arndt:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Arndt:

Totally understand.

David Kalsow:

Okay.

Gary Arndt:

And it does.

Gary Arndt:

I would agree with David.

Gary Arndt:

It's less hoppy.

Gary Arndt:

It's not, would you call this a west coast IpA?

Bobby Fleshman:

No, no.

Bobby Fleshman:

Palle.

Joel Hermansen:

This is a palle.

Joel Hermansen:

It's regular.

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

I Do you see why that changed our lives?

Gary Arndt:

No, but I love how there was no pause.

Gary Arndt:

Right.

Gary Arndt:

Serious.

Gary Arndt:

It just

Joel Hermansen:

No.

Joel Hermansen:

Knew that was gonna be the response because it's Gary.

Gary Arndt:

Gary is unfiltered.

David Kalsow:

Yeah.

David Kalsow:

But it consumes, beer consumes your entire life as a home brewer's turn brewers

David Kalsow:

for,

Joel Hermansen:

but let, okay.

David Kalsow:

Right.

Joel Hermansen:

Okay.

Joel Hermansen:

So let,

Gary Arndt:

this is, this is a very good beer.

Joel Hermansen:

It's an outstanding beer.

David Kalsow:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

And what, what, what do you make that is closest to this?

Gary Arndt:

Uh, well,

Joel Hermansen:

before we get to that, let me ask you a question.

Gary Arndt:

All right.

Joel Hermansen:

Okay, because I know you have an answer for that question.

Gary Arndt:

To me, this tastes like a, it's halfway between a light lager and a West coast IPA.

Bobby Fleshman:

That's, that's where it is.

Joel Hermansen:

Precisely.

Joel Hermansen:

Okay, so let, let, let's pretend that you had that beer in 1997

Bobby Fleshman:

mm-hmm.

Joel Hermansen:

For the first time.

Joel Hermansen:

And you had, everyone has a brown ale

Bobby Fleshman:

and a porter.

Joel Hermansen:

Right.

Joel Hermansen:

The only, the, the, the high point of your craft beer experience at that point was Newcastle Brown Ale.

Bobby Fleshman:

Mm-hmm.

Joel Hermansen:

And then all of a sudden you taste this.

Joel Hermansen:

Where are you at?

Gary Arndt:

He's folks, he's

David Kalsow:

speechless.

David Kalsow:

This is the first time in the history

Bobby Fleshman:

of the, that's a question that I've never thought about.

Bobby Fleshman:

I, I think the premise is what's got Gary.

David Kalsow:

Uh, in 97, I would've been two,

Gary Arndt:

so

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh, damn.

Bobby Fleshman:

No,

Gary Arndt:

I would've

Bobby Fleshman:

been

Gary Arndt:

a fully formed adult who could drink, but I,

Joel Hermansen:

but if you had spent decades drinking Miller Lite and then you had that.

Bobby Fleshman:

And again, my

Joel Hermansen:

mine was Amber Bach

Bobby Fleshman:

which was a caramel introduced, but it's not

Joel Hermansen:

like, but it would've been a revelation?

David Kalsow:

If there was no other beer on the shelf.

David Kalsow:

And this was like, oh, but that's

Joel Hermansen:

1997,

David Kalsow:

right?

David Kalsow:

Yeah.

David Kalsow:

And that's what you're coming from the context of like, here's been lived, put

Gary Arndt:

this in content.

Gary Arndt:

I've never been a huge drinker, period.

Gary Arndt:

90% of the alcohol I drink is in front of you.

Gary Arndt:

That's probably not even an exaggeration.

Gary Arndt:

Maybe, you know, if I'm gonna mon or, or something.

Gary Arndt:

I actually, the

David Kalsow:

10% was when he had a cider at his house.

Gary Arndt:

I never drink at home, ever.

Bobby Fleshman:

Remember John Keeling?

Bobby Fleshman:

He, he, he on this podcast said that it was, that alcohol is, or at least beer is a social lubricant.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's, it's meant to be consumed in the presence of others.

Bobby Fleshman:

Not that we judge anyone for having a beer by themselves, but there is something to that.

David Kalsow:

I can't have a beer without talking.

Bobby Fleshman:

There's something we Yeah, exactly.

David Kalsow:

We have a podcast.

Gary Arndt:

I mean, I should say in rare cases, like I've had a bottle of wine that was open that I, I had from someplace else.

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

I needed to finish it off and I'll have a little bit,

Bobby Fleshman:

I'll have a scotch once in a while by myself.

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

I don't.

Gary Arndt:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Arndt:

But I, I don't, I don't drink and I've never considered myself necessarily a beer enthusiast.

Gary Arndt:

Even in college, we would have like a Beers of the World Night.

Gary Arndt:

Everyone had to bring a six pack of a foreign beer.

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

And then we'd just kind of all mix it up and, but we weren't, it was just sort of just something we did to get drunk.

Gary Arndt:

And it was a lark.

Gary Arndt:

It wasn't like.

Gary Arndt:

We were, and to be

Bobby Fleshman:

sophisticated and yet have a kegger.

Bobby Fleshman:

Right?

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

I mean, we were the debate team.

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

So it was, it was that kind of thing.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

So I've, and I, I'll go back.

Gary Arndt:

I've never thought that much about beer until I started coming here.

Bobby Fleshman:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Arndt:

I didn't realize.

Joel Hermansen:

So you're saying I've changed your life.

Gary Arndt:

Well, you're, he's saying that you, somewhere at this table did, for better or worse,

Bobby Fleshman:

you complete him,

Gary Arndt:

right?

Gary Arndt:

No, I've just never, when I was traveling, wine was always the thing that people were pushing.

Gary Arndt:

And there were some places domestically that were Oh, our craft beer scene.

Gary Arndt:

And it was always places like, I dunno, every place is a craft beer scene now.

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

So it really didn't mean much, but they would always talk about it at an abstract level.

Gary Arndt:

They would never get into the details of different types of beer.

Gary Arndt:

So I've, I mean, I've learned a lot coming here.

Gary Arndt:

Like I, uh, the first time I ever had a barrel aged beer, I was talking shit.

Gary Arndt:

'cause I thought it was just a marketing gimmick.

Gary Arndt:

And Bobby poured me a, I think it was a triple de botcher eye.

Gary Arndt:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Arndt:

A little bit.

Gary Arndt:

And I tasted it and I was like, I was very surprised 'cause I could really taste the bourbon.

Gary Arndt:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Arndt:

It was like someone put a bourbon shot in it.

Gary Arndt:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Arndt:

And I was shocked at how different it tasted.

Gary Arndt:

And I've tried lots of different beers since then.

Gary Arndt:

I really like sours, especially when there's no fruit in it.

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

I, I've

Joel Hermansen:

noticed,

Gary Arndt:

I would, I I wish you did more sours to be honest.

Gary Arndt:

Yep.

Gary Arndt:

Next, uh, like in one day from now and more straight.

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

Please don't encourage this.

David Kalsow:

See, and I'm on Allison's team.

David Kalsow:

I'm an MSB and a Port Porter stock.

David Kalsow:

We're brewing that on Friday.

David Kalsow:

So,

Gary Arndt:

but this, I think this is a good if to make a, what the, the DNA of mc Fleshman is.

Gary Arndt:

It's the fact that you have that diversity of beers.

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

A very large diversity of beers.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

And if,

Gary Arndt:

if I take that, very few other places have

Bobby Fleshman:

every, you know, I give all the credit to the people making it happen.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'm involved, but I'm not doing everything.

Bobby Fleshman:

And what I do take credit for is managing that.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'm, I'm spinning plates on, you know, there's, you've seen our menu, there's 30 handles, and it's just everywhere.

Bobby Fleshman:

And I don't want to back away from a challenge.

Bobby Fleshman:

That's my, if you want to, if you wanna look behind the curtain, if I see something that I haven't made yet, I'm gonna make it.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'm make the best I can.

Bobby Fleshman:

Hopefully I can make the best version of,

Gary Arndt:

I still think you need to do a passport.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

What is your, what is your closest beer to Sierra Nevada Green.

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

You were going,

Joel Hermansen:

like, what do you, what do, when you go home at night and you think about beer that we may, what is your closest one?

Bobby Fleshman:

Okay, so first of all, I, I ascribe to the Dan Carey mentality of, of, of Newcleus that we should not be mimicking, we should not be trying to make the same beers.

Bobby Fleshman:

So first of all, I'm not trying to make anything like the Sierra Pale Ale that's not my goal.

Gary Arndt:

Oh, you didn't answer my question.

Gary Arndt:

What's your closest beer to

Bobby Fleshman:

this?

Bobby Fleshman:

That that's what, where we're going here.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh, but, but, but secondly, um,

Gary Arndt:

because I don't know if you do,

Bobby Fleshman:

I'm inspired by it and we made a beer pretty much during COVID.

Bobby Fleshman:

It was called Black Sheep.

Bobby Fleshman:

And did You

Joel Hermansen:

Never had it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Okay.

Bobby Fleshman:

Black Sheep

Joel Hermansen:

never had it.

Joel Hermansen:

I wanted to try it for a long

Bobby Fleshman:

time.

Bobby Fleshman:

I was gonna call it 1980 for obvious reasons.

Bobby Fleshman:

And I thought, well, we have another beer with a number, so we can't really do that.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh,

Gary Arndt:

I got it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Is that okay?

Bobby Fleshman:

This is the, what do you the post show?

Bobby Fleshman:

This is a copy strike.

Bobby Fleshman:

We get the house music, this is gonna come up.

Bobby Fleshman:

We get the, the house music during the post show.

Bobby Fleshman:

So, so I wasn't, call it 1980, you

David Kalsow:

to be done music.

Bobby Fleshman:

And for a lot of reasons we decided not to do that.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then that beer was really popular, by the way, and it was inspired by this one.

Bobby Fleshman:

And in the same way that 5 47 was inspired by Pliny the Elder.

Bobby Fleshman:

I didn't want to sit like on one side of the table, the recipe for this one, and then to create our own.

Bobby Fleshman:

I just wanted to think about it.

Bobby Fleshman:

You know, like a musician might think about music while they're writing a song, but.

Bobby Fleshman:

What came of that was, uh, Black Sheep didn't work because Three Sheep Is a, is a famous brewery in the state of Wisconsin, and it became really kind of confusing in, in the market.

Bobby Fleshman:

People thought that was a Three Sheep, Three Sheep Beer So we pulled it back outta the market and it was black sheep again, because it was a, it was more of a west coast amongst our English and German beers.

Bobby Fleshman:

That's why we called it that.

Bobby Fleshman:

So we, we pull it out and we let it rest for a year.

Bobby Fleshman:

And then, and then we brought out what we called RBG, which was, uh, Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

Bobby Fleshman:

It was a reference to, to the, the judge, the Supreme Court judge, and, and, and that beer, it was pretty much the same beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

We didn't change much, maybe the yeast.

Bobby Fleshman:

It was something small that we were, again, we're trying to define ourselves.

Bobby Fleshman:

We don't wanna rep replicate this beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's already on the market.

Joel Hermansen:

So RBG.

Joel Hermansen:

Which became Repeal Day,

Bobby Fleshman:

which eventually became Repeal Day,

Joel Hermansen:

which you brewed yesterday,

Bobby Fleshman:

which you brewed yesterday, which will come out December 5th.

Joel Hermansen:

Was

Bobby Fleshman:

was, is the in Black Sheep, the Beer inspired by this beer, ultimately the beer of Green.

Bobby Fleshman:

Green,

Joel Hermansen:

which is Black Sheep.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yep.

Joel Hermansen:

Which was

Bobby Fleshman:

Follow it up the ranks

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

Okay.

Joel Hermansen:

Wow.

Joel Hermansen:

There's

Bobby Fleshman:

a lot to unpack.

Bobby Fleshman:

There's a lot to unpack there.

Bobby Fleshman:

And

Joel Hermansen:

so Gary, several Wednesdays from now, when that becomes available, you'll have a berlinerweiss

Gary Arndt:

and you'll have a 5 47.

Gary Arndt:

What's this I mean,?

Joel Hermansen:

True

Bobby Fleshman:

But, okay, but what, like, again, I go back to we're not trying to make this beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

If you want this beer, this beer is available.

Bobby Fleshman:

They make it.

Bobby Fleshman:

We're trying to use, we're trying to, to be inspired by it.

Bobby Fleshman:

And I, and I think when we made Black Sheep, which became ultimately what we call repeal day, um, we're trying to do a new, like a, if you were to brew this beer in 2015 or 2020, what would it taste like?

Bobby Fleshman:

What are your, what are your ingredients now?

Bobby Fleshman:

So we were trying to make that paleo, and so we use New Zealand hops.

Bobby Fleshman:

We, we do, uh, what's called biotransformation.

Bobby Fleshman:

We use these yeast that can give you a little more fruitiness and

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah, it's me this time.

Bobby Fleshman:

Come on.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh, so, so anyway, we're riffing on it, and it's a wildly popular beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

And I think to myself, we're not gonna, we're not gonna be this beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

We're not gonna be as big as that.

Joel Hermansen:

So

David Kalsow:

We're far from Ken Grossman at this point, right?

Joel Hermansen:

Not

David Kalsow:

too far.

Bobby Fleshman:

Not too far,

David Kalsow:

but far enough.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh, but we, a beer call that, that's inspired by this one in some regards.

Bobby Fleshman:

We just now an really

Joel Hermansen:

what Ken Gross Ken Grossman did, I mean, just to put it succinctly.

David Kalsow:

Yes.

Joel Hermansen:

What Ken Grossman did is he took me and you and everyone else who in the late 1990s was, you know, at some college bar in, in somewhere, Wisconsin or wherever, and had made this transition from, you know, your, your domestic beer to that like, I, I knew that moment on, I, I would never be able to drink that domestic beer again with any level of, of sincerity.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

It, it is inspiring.

Bobby Fleshman:

It, it's hard, it's hard to appreciate unless you've had one and you've had that moment, it, it's hard to explain.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

And you just had your moment and here you are, you're still.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's a good beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

Gary's a worldly guy.

Bobby Fleshman:

Gary's been out there.

Bobby Fleshman:

He's, he has perspective.

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah, I know Gary finds me very parochial.

Gary Arndt:

Yes.

David Kalsow:

What good friends?

Bobby Fleshman:

IPA Grateful Dead.

Bobby Fleshman:

Joel's happy.

David Kalsow:

Oh,

Joel Hermansen:

okay.

Joel Hermansen:

Can I just ask, so you had an opportunity just to speak to somebody this afternoon who's, an inspiration.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

But did, did that rise to the level that you expected it to?

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

Were you left wanting more?

Joel Hermansen:

Like what, no, what was, what were your takeaways?

Joel Hermansen:

Because then you and I have talked a lot about this episode leading up to it

Bobby Fleshman:

in the industry.

Bobby Fleshman:

Right now, we're all looking, we, the beer industry, all the brewery owners we're looking for, uh, what, where are we at, where, where are we going next?

Bobby Fleshman:

And for me, what I hit on upon most is, you're right, he and I are tinkerers.

Bobby Fleshman:

I, I don't, I don't work well behind the bar.

Bobby Fleshman:

I, I could sell the beer because I make it, but that's not the same as being a good beer tender or bar manager.

Bobby Fleshman:

My, my, my dream is to be efficient, to advance the technology, advance the quality, the safety.

Bobby Fleshman:

And to hear him say all that, that he did, it's, it's inspiring.

Bobby Fleshman:

'cause every night I go home and it's, we're, we're trying to make ends meet between, you know, the costs and, and everything.

Bobby Fleshman:

And understanding that the, the way out here is, is scale.

Bobby Fleshman:

We need to get to a certain scale.

Bobby Fleshman:

And understanding that he did that, he was brave enough to do that.

Bobby Fleshman:

We're comparing half a century apart.

Bobby Fleshman:

Right?

Bobby Fleshman:

It's a different world.

Joel Hermansen:

Right.

Bobby Fleshman:

But by the same token, I feel like he and I are both restless and that's what I latched onto the most.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'm, I'm, I'm latched onto how do we do better every day and, and be innovative and, and improve our quality.

David Kalsow:

Joel, how about you?

David Kalsow:

Reverse that question on yourself?

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah, I mean, I, I, uh.

Joel Hermansen:

Little known fact.

Joel Hermansen:

I had actually talked to Ken Grossman on the phone in 2008 after an attempted visit to the brewery.

Joel Hermansen:

So I had actually emailed the brewery that a visit that my brother-in-law and I had taken to the brewery had fallen, uh, short and there was no, nothing on the calendar.

Joel Hermansen:

And it was a fairly benign correspondence, but he immediately called me back and really wanted me to come back to the brewery the next day.

Bobby Fleshman:

This was straight up Wally world, right?

Joel Hermansen:

It was, it was punched on.

Joel Hermansen:

I mean, like, I literally went there and, you know, on a day in which online it said it was open and then it wasn't open.

Joel Hermansen:

You know, I just emailed him and, and indicated that, your calendar was, was.

Joel Hermansen:

You know, out of date and that it wasn't open.

Joel Hermansen:

And we had such a good conversation over the phone and he wanted me to come back and I had a chance to connect with him then, and I met with his head brewer.

Joel Hermansen:

So I, I don't think I was surprised by anything today, because I know how much beer means to him.

Joel Hermansen:

I know how much the customer means to him.

Joel Hermansen:

I know how much the process means to him.

Joel Hermansen:

So nothing about today's conversation was a huge surprise to me.

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

Because to me he's a version of you, but 20 years older.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

I mean, you're, every time I come in the brewery, I walk through the back door, I never know what I'm gonna find.

Joel Hermansen:

You're gonna be tinkering with something.

Joel Hermansen:

You're gonna be suspended from the ceiling by a rope, you know, doing something or other, or over a grill doing something.

Joel Hermansen:

And I'm just gonna be like, oh, okay.

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah, that's Bobby doing Bobby.

Joel Hermansen:

And, um, to me.

Joel Hermansen:

That, that's kind of what Ken embodies.

Joel Hermansen:

You know, I, I imagine the people at Sierra Nevada in 2002 when they went into the Gilman Brewery, or if it was after oh five, when they went into the 20th Street Brewery in Chico, they probably found him doing Bobby things.

Joel Hermansen:

And I mean, I mean that as the most sincere compliment.

Joel Hermansen:

And I know that, you know what a compliment that is.

Bobby Fleshman:

It is, it seems reversed.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'm only doing Grossman things.

Bobby Fleshman:

That's the way.

Joel Hermansen:

Right.

Joel Hermansen:

And, and, but I think Grossman would acknowledge that you were doing Grossman things.

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

And that, that's, that's pretty badass.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

I mean, what I took away from it was he's not directly talking to him.

Bobby Fleshman:

He's more than what we've read about.

Bobby Fleshman:

Like, I could see that guy could have gone on for three hours about how to passivate kegs.

Bobby Fleshman:

Like there was more Right.

Bobby Fleshman:

Than someone much hiding right there.

Joel Hermansen:

I think he wanted to talk more about kegs,

Bobby Fleshman:

which I would've, but I knew that would've not been good use of everyone's time.

Joel Hermansen:

Right.

Joel Hermansen:

He, he wanted to talk more about kegs.

Joel Hermansen:

Yeah.

Joel Hermansen:

He wanted to talk more about these deep level intricacies.

Gary Arndt:

That's true of almost everyone that's successful.

Joel Hermansen:

It is.

Gary Arndt:

I don't know if you've ever seen, there was a, um, a Ben Aflac interview recently and you see celebrities like him and they're on the red carpet and stuff.

Gary Arndt:

You just see the celebrity and he got into the details of movie making and financing and everything else, and you realize, well, there's a lot more here.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

That you don't see.

Gary Arndt:

And I think with all famous people or anyone who's successful, there is a level of detail that someone from the outside doesn't see.

Joel Hermansen:

Right.

Gary Arndt:

And then in fact, once you get closer, it's all detail.

Gary Arndt:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Gary Arndt:

That, that's what makes them successful.

Joel Hermansen:

I

David Kalsow:

okay.

David Kalsow:

I have a day job, so we need to wrap this hour and a half.

David Kalsow:

Yep.

David Kalsow:

We're done.

David Kalsow:

Post show conversation up

Joel Hermansen:

our, I like, I'm done.

Joel Hermansen:

The,

Bobby Fleshman:

the pyramid is as tall as the eyes between the, the host and, and the, and the Gary, what you call yourself

David Kalsow:

Gary, wrap us up.

Gary Arndt:

Is this gonna be a real episode or a Paton episode?

David Kalsow:

I'm not sure yet.

David Kalsow:

I'll,

Gary Arndt:

I'll, I just cut and paste a conclusion I did from another episode.

Gary Arndt:

Then.

Gary Arndt:

Okay.

Gary Arndt:

Put all the transcript, not do,

Joel Hermansen:

redo the thing,

Gary Arndt:

put it, put it into ai and have it make something tolerable.

David Kalsow:

I may only take 30 minutes of this hour conversation, hour 15 conversation and make it on the public, but it will, the rest will be on Patreon.

Gary Arndt:

This concludes the post game wrap up of respecting the beer.

Gary Arndt:

As good as our interview with Ken Grossman was, this kind of is the opposite.

Gary Arndt:

This is, this is the Packers beating the Lions Week one and then losing to the Bengals.

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh boy.

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh wow.

Bobby Fleshman:

Wow.

Gary Arndt:

The producer of respecting the Beer is David Kalsow Without David, there would be no show.

Gary Arndt:

You probably wanna sign up for Patreon because I think a lot of this discussion's gonna wind up over there.

Gary Arndt:

Links to that are in the show notes.

Gary Arndt:

And until next time, remember to respect the beer.

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Respecting the Beer
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