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Episode 125

Taplist: Scapegoat Bock LIVE at Tardigrade's Bookshelf

Live form the Tardigrade's Bookshelf, the gang dives into bock beers and the story of Scapegoat, McFleshman's take on a bock.

Bonus content that didn't make the main feed, Q&A with the audience and business owner woes as we interview the owner's of the venue.

Visit the Tardigrade's Bookshelf in Appleton, WI: https://www.tardigradesbookshelf.com/

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patreon.com/respectingthebeerpodcast

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  2. Access to exclusive beers
  3. Access to 50-minute video tour of McFleshman's

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QUESTIONS?

Email us at respectingthebeer@gmail.com

--

CHAPTERS

00:00 Welcome to Respecting the Beer LIVE

01:04 Venue Vibes

02:10 Bock Beer History

04:44 Goats and Doppelbock

06:59 Water and Yeast

08:56 Augustiner Yeast Love

12:36 Yeast Drift and Repitching

18:28 Malt Builds the Bock

23:09 Sweetness vs Maltiness

26:21 Beer Poker Tradition

27:42 Decoction and Melanoidins

29:04 Scapegoat Name Story

32:45 Hops for Balance

34:36 Ingredient Sourcing Small Brewery

35:10 Why Hop Farms Matter

35:40 Scapegoat Vibe Pairings

37:02 Maibock Versus Bock

38:34 Minty Hops And Timing

40:15 Golden Bock Market Talk

41:09 Tardigrades Tap List

42:21 Tardigrade's Bookshelf Plugs

43:03 Support us on Patreon!

--

CREDITS

Hosts:

Bobby Fleshman - https://www.mcfleshmans.com/

Allison Fleshman -https://www.instagram.com/mcfleshmans/

Joel Hermansen

Gary Ardnt - https://everything-everywhere.com/everything-everywhere-daily-podcast/

Music by Sarah Lynn Huss - https://www.facebook.com/kevin.huss.52/

Recorded & Produced by David Kalsow - https://davidkalsow.com/

Brought to you by McFleshman's Brewing Co

Transcript
Decker:

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another exciting episode of "Respecting the Beer." I am Decker, and, uh, Gary would've been here, but he heard tardigrades, and he was like, "Oh, where can those-- When can those

Decker:

survive?

Decker:

I must travel to a far distant planet." And so he is off on, uh, Europa

Decker:

right now.

Decker:

Europa?

Allison:

Europa.

Bobby Fleshman:

do- doing

Bobby Fleshman:

a podcast

Decker:

doing

Decker:

a podcast on-

Decker:

Europa.

Decker:

He traveled far, far, far away to depths unheard of.

Decker:

Um, but we are here at Tardigrades Bookshelf,

Decker:

and, uh, we're talking about some beers.

Decker:

But, uh, let's just gauge the vibe of, uh, how we're doing today.

Decker:

We've

Decker:

got the,

Decker:

the good doctors here.

Decker:

What's up, guys?

Decker:

Hi.

Ambient Mic:

Hi.

Allison:

doing well.

Allison:

Doing well.

Allison:

I hear we're gonna be talking

Allison:

about

Allison:

Bock beers

Allison:

today.

Allison:

I'm very excited.

Allison:

I haven't had

Allison:

the Bock in a long time, and it is delicious served here at

Allison:

Tarre de Grey.

Allison:

They have so

Allison:

many of our beers on tap, and we are thankful for them.

Allison:

Hooray.

Bobby Fleshman:

that hallway, I see eight of our handles.

Bobby Fleshman:

There's

Bobby Fleshman:

eight of our

Bobby Fleshman:

products here

Bobby Fleshman:

today.

Bobby Fleshman:

So good.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Decker:

I've never been in here before.

Decker:

I know.

Decker:

This w- so-

Decker:

You

Decker:

need to.

Decker:

……I do, yeah, and this is on me.

Decker:

Sorry about that.

Decker:

I will come back.

Decker:

This is amazing.

Decker:

Um, this

Decker:

was like the old VFW back

Ambient Mic:

VFW day,

Decker:

I think I

Decker:

saw a punk rock show here one time, and I do believe I was escorted politely

Decker:

out of

Decker:

said

Decker:

punk rock show.

Decker:

So this is-- might be the first time that I get to leave on my own

Decker:

accord

Bobby Fleshman:

Being

Bobby Fleshman:

escorted politely out of a punk rock show seems like-

Bobby Fleshman:

very disjointed.

Bobby Fleshman:

disjoint.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Ambient Mic:

Yeah.

Ambient Mic:

Well,

Decker:

Yeah.

Allison:

Well, we're sitting in the

Allison:

Velvet Fox portion, which I believe is rented out for weddings

Allison:

and events and such.

Allison:

Um, and they do

Allison:

their science society, which I gave a

Allison:

talk at, um, a few weeks ago.

Allison:

And so

Allison:

it's a really fun w-welcome space.

Allison:

It's a, it's a public house, but does coffee and beer and other things, I believe, so.

Allison:

And they also sell books.

Allison:

It's a wonderful thing

Decker:

So, um, we're here-- Yeah, the great vibe,

Decker:

great seats.

Decker:

I love the, uh, the thrifted couches and other soft chairs.

Decker:

I'm a, i'm a fan of soft seating.

Decker:

What can I say?

Allison:

It goes, it's, it's in line with your punk rockness.

Decker:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Decker:

I'm a rough and tumble guy.

Decker:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Decker:

I'm a hardcore dude, what can I say?

Decker:

Um, but let's talk about bock beer.

Decker:

That is why we're here.

Decker:

And, uh, McFleshman's, you guys make the Scapegoat bock, which, uh, before we get into w- well,

Decker:

yeah, let's talk about what is a Bock beer.

Decker:

And, uh, Allison, you've got something you would like to

Decker:

say

Allison:

I do.

Allison:

I know.

Allison:

Um, so years ago, I wrote a blog for the brewery because I was told I needed to do so, so I did weekly, um, which took way too much time.

Allison:

Um, but I dove deep into the history of the bock beers, and so I was just gonna read, um, kinda something, uh,

Allison:

that I wrote way back in the day.

Allison:

Um, so follow me back to 1500s.

Allison:

We are going to learn about the history of the bock.

Allison:

So we're in 1500s Bavaria.

Allison:

So the ultimate separation of church and state happened.

Allison:

Turns out all the monasteries were up to now, they were the ones that brewed the beer.

Allison:

The dukes found out that they were brewing beer and were like, "Oh, wait, you're charging for beer. We could make money on beer." So the dukes realized that beer equaled profit, so thus began the government-controlled breweries and the Reinheitsgebot was born.

Allison:

The Reinheitsgebot being, of course, the German beer purity law.

Allison:

Funny thing is that if you fire all the monks who formerly brewed the beer and you didn't think to keep any of them on staff to teach you how to do it, you're rather screwed.

Allison:

So the state-led breweries ended up making so many mistakes and having so many bad beers that were lethal, um, and there's even a record that oxen bile was used in one of them.

Allison:

It was such a bad idea.

Bobby Fleshman:

In place of hops, Is that the

Allison:

I'm not sure.

Allison:

I mean, you know, i, I, s-s- I use oxen bile for so many different substitutes.

Allison:

Applesauce, olive oil, oxen bile.

Allison:

So, um, anyway, so that's the reason that the Reinheitsgebot was essent- like, was essential.

Allison:

It saved lives.

Allison:

Um, okay, back to the bock, though.

Allison:

So the bock beer.

Allison:

First of

Allison:

all, there's many kinds of bocks, which we'll get to that in a second.

Allison:

Um, so some brewers in einbeck, uh, were able to brew delicious beer on the government-owned equipment, and the reputation spread.

Allison:

So this is in Einbeck.

Allison:

Now we're in the 1600s.

Allison:

Munich got wind that einbeck beer was actually pretty good, so they convinced Elias pichler to join them, who was a brewer.

Allison:

So he moved to Munich.

Allison:

Problem was, in einbeck, the beer was brewed as an ale, but munich, the wild yeast was a lager yeast.

Allison:

And so when he tried to brew the einbeck beer there, it became something entirely different.

Bobby Fleshman:

You say wild yeast?

Allison:

Yes.

Bobby Fleshman:

It won't be wild.

Bobby Fleshman:

be

Allison:

wild.

Allison:

I'm sorry.

Allison:

Domesticated.

Allison:

Well, domesticated, y- but the the yeast that they

Allison:

used.

Ambient Mic:

Yeah,

Bobby Fleshman:

the yeast that they use.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yep.

Bobby Fleshman:

They were the ones living the plush life indoors.

Ambient Mic:

Right.

Allison:

Anyway, so they lagered it.

Allison:

Okay, so in Einbeck, the beer was named einpockisch, which became einpock with Munich's dialect.

Allison:

Over time, that transferred or transformed into einbock, which is really funny because bock in that dialect means goat.

Allison:

And so ever since, the goat has been affiliated in the official symbol of all Bock beers.

Allison:

In fact, Ayinger's Celebrator even comes with a little white plastic goat

Bobby Fleshman:

And

Bobby Fleshman:

every brewery worth their salt has one of those little plastic goats hanging on their mash tun for good luck.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yes.

Bobby Fleshman:

We are one of them

Allison:

and so, and a lot of bocks will have the, um, suffix, uh, ator, so there's Celebrator,

Allison:

Salvator.

Allison:

Um, what other ators

Allison:

are there?

Bobby Fleshman:

Much all of them except us.

Bobby Fleshman:

We make the,

Bobby Fleshman:

the weirdest names

Allison:

Yeah.

Allison:

We, our names are ridiculous.

Allison:

Um, anyway, so, uh, the, um, the idea is

Allison:

that, that it was

Allison:

a, an ale

Allison:

brewed with lager

Bobby Fleshman:

what ator mean- Oh … meant?

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Ambient Mic:

Hang

Allison:

means?

Allison:

Oh, I didn't.

Allison:

Yeah.

Allison:

Hang on.

Allison:

Uh,

Allison:

so

Allison:

most commercial doppelbocks, uh, will be named with the suffix ator as a homage to Salvator.

Allison:

In Latin,

Allison:

Salvator means savior,

Allison:

and the beer is definitely a savior with its high caloric content, exactly what the monks needed

Allison:

to survive Lent

Allison:

sea- or survive

Allison:

the Lent season,

Allison:

as food was off-limits.

Allison:

But beer, well,

Allison:

that was okay

Bobby Fleshman:

So rather than, rather than dreading that season, they looked forward to

Decker:

Oh man, They had to.

Allison:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

We must abstain and

Bobby Fleshman:

drink Bach

Allison:

No.

Allison:

But

Decker:

oh no.

Allison:

the calor- that's the really high doppelbock beer that was used for surviving Lent

Allison:

and fasting at the same time.

Bobby Fleshman:

not, not remembering

Ambient Mic:

what

Decker:

what was really interesting in that is, um, something that kind of ties in with what we were talking about earlier is with your scapegoat, the names.

Decker:

And there's so many names and how it evolved from, um, pock with a P, ……right, all the way to a B. So,

Decker:

um, I, I

Decker:

would assume it was probably the monks after only drinking Bock

Decker:

beer

Decker:

probably were, like,

Decker:

just slurring

Allison:

exploring Whatever.

Allison:

Fine

Decker:

I

Decker:

just-- Imagine the-- It's like the f- it's like 1600 and you're like, "Easter's 40 days

Decker:

away.

Decker:

Here we go.

Decker:

Let's just drink for 40 days." Uh, I'm sure

Decker:

they were-

Decker:

pretty great.

Decker:

Um,

Decker:

but let's talk about, uh,

Decker:

what

Decker:

is

Decker:

a Bock in, uh, the, the chemical, the, the ingredient sense.

Bobby Fleshman:

Well,

Bobby Fleshman:

right off the bat, bocks, w-we think of

Bobby Fleshman:

them as having high alcohol, and they do, and they always sort of have, but they had less alcohol back then because the, the ingredients didn't ferment as well.

Bobby Fleshman:

They didn't make as much alcohol out, out of their given ingredients.

Bobby Fleshman:

So in that sense, maybe it did make for sustenance better than a 9% doppelbock would today.

Bobby Fleshman:

Um, I always glaze over the four main ingredients when we talk about these.

Bobby Fleshman:

We're like, "Let's isolate a beer and let's talk about it," and then I forget to even bring up the four main pieces of any given beer.

Bobby Fleshman:

So right off the bat, the, the water profile of Munich is important.

Bobby Fleshman:

The, the, the profile there is just perfect for making dark lagers, and they have to do a little work to make their helles, which was in response to the pilsner across the border in, in the Czech Republic.

Bobby Fleshman:

But they're really good at making dark lagers there.

Bobby Fleshman:

So we'll put a little bit of, um… W-where carbonates are,

Bobby Fleshman:

are pretty good.

Bobby Fleshman:

Our, our calcium level is what we look at, and we want to make them a really malt forward.

Bobby Fleshman:

Our water

Bobby Fleshman:

should drink soft.

Bobby Fleshman:

It should accentuate that malt.

Bobby Fleshman:

But-

Allison:

malt-forward beer, water make malt taste

Allison:

better.

Allison:

Calcium

Allison:

chloride, yeah,

Bobby Fleshman:

water will make malt taste better.

Bobby Fleshman:

Calcium chloride, yeah, ……gives you that instead of sulfate, and if you wanted to make something hoppy, sulfate would be the way to go.

Bobby Fleshman:

But yeah, so we'll try to do our best to address that, and then, uh, get the carbonate level where we want it to be.

Bobby Fleshman:

Not as high as you might find in London, where you get, you know, these, these darker ales.

Bobby Fleshman:

But then we'll use an Augustiner yeast.

Bobby Fleshman:

We like their

Bobby Fleshman:

yeast a

Bobby Fleshman:

lot.

Ambient Mic:

lot.

Allison:

yeast.

Bobby Fleshman:

and all these lager yeasts are really close kin.

Bobby Fleshman:

You know, we talk about ale yeast, and they're-- That's a big, big, big, big, big, big family.

Bobby Fleshman:

There's been, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of years for, for ale yeast to break off.

Bobby Fleshman:

But lagers have only been around for a few hundred years, so it's this pretty small, tight-knit family in the lager world.

Bobby Fleshman:

We choose

Bobby Fleshman:

to use the same yeast

Bobby Fleshman:

that, uh, Augustiner uses

Allison:

I was about to say, can I just

Allison:

take a moment and talk about Augustiner

Allison:

yeast?

Bobby Fleshman:

Sure,

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Decker:

Yes,

Decker:

please

Allison:

yes,

Allison:

because I have so much to say other than like, you know,

Allison:

like if there's this a-- Like, so

Allison:

Bobby's my spouse.

Allison:

We've been almost married 20

Allison:

years, been together for like 24.

Allison:

I don't even know.

Allison:

Um,

Allison:

but you know that

Allison:

the, the, like the, the, the celebrity list

Allison:

of like,

Allison:

you know,

Allison:

know

Allison:

what I'm talking about maybe?

Allison:

There we

Decker:

hall

Bobby Fleshman:

That, that list that

Allison:

past list.

Allison:

right?

Decker:

Yeah, yeah

Bobby Fleshman:

The past list

Allison:

So the, there's no list that

Allison:

exists for Bobby, but there's a list of yeasts

Ambient Mic:

yeasts that like-

Bobby Fleshman:

I, I worked

Bobby Fleshman:

in

Bobby Fleshman:

a German-

Decker:

you for a, a good strain of

Allison:

I would leave you for a, a good cigar.

Allison:

He would leave me for

Allison:

like this yeast

Ambient Mic:

like this yeast.

Bobby Fleshman:

a good stout.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Believe me- I- … with this yeast ………I worked in a German brewery in Oklahoma

Allison:

never heard him talk

Allison:

and flirt with this idea of Augustiner yeast

Allison:

more

Decker:

some nice

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh,

Allison:

it's weird.

Allison:

I

Allison:

know, but it's true because I--

Allison:

you were working at, um, Royal

Allison:

Bavaria.

Allison:

It's a wonderful restaurant in the middle of Oklahoma, and they were using Augustiner yeast, and he's like,

Allison:

I just have to get some." He was obsessed

Bobby Fleshman:

obsessed

Allison:

it was almost like, "You know, I'm here.

Allison:

Hey, husband." And he's like, "That's cool.

Allison:

I just-- I found some Augustiner yeast I can get.

Allison:

Oh my God, can you believe this?" You know it-

Bobby Fleshman:

You know in "Airplane!" And y- you know, I always quote "Airplane!" There's the, the boy sitting next to the, the nun, and the nun's reading "Boy's Life," and he,

Bobby Fleshman:

he's reading "Nun's Life. I feel like I'm reading "Yeast

Bobby Fleshman:

Life" or

Bobby Fleshman:

something.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah,

Allison:

You really are.

Allison:

I just- I feel like I am, I am, sec- I come second to Augustiner

Allison:

yeast, and I just have to… This is

Allison:

my therapy session.

Allison:

I

Allison:

just have to say

Allison:

that out loud.

Allison:

No,

Allison:

he-

Decker:

big divergence on this, uh, this

Bobby Fleshman:

Anyway, if it isn't clear we like Augustiner yeast,

Allison:

You guys are his therapy session.

Allison:

We're just here.

Allison:

Did You say you like

Decker:

Why do you like it?

Decker:

Why do you, like it,

Bobby Fleshman:

you, it, I, I, like I said, there's, there's not a huge difference, difference between all the lager strains, but once you brew with them thousands

Bobby Fleshman:

of times, you

Bobby Fleshman:

start to really know them.

Bobby Fleshman:

And the, once you know their, their tiny little quirks, you'd never wanna deviate.

Bobby Fleshman:

So, so I, I got into, uh, the Augustiner strain having worked in a German brewery in Oklahoma, and

Bobby Fleshman:

I'll never forget the smells,

Bobby Fleshman:

the, and the product

Bobby Fleshman:

that was produced there, and it just, for me,

Bobby Fleshman:

it, that's what lager is, forever will be.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'm looking at some other strains these days, actually, to be honest, but-

Bobby Fleshman:

I know,

Bobby Fleshman:

I know, I know.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'm just wanting to play.

Bobby Fleshman:

Just artistically

Bobby Fleshman:

wanna stretch out a little.

Allison:

Don't let the beer

Allison:

hear.

Bobby Fleshman:

You can come up here.

Bobby Fleshman:

But, but now I know this

Bobby Fleshman:

yeast so

Bobby Fleshman:

well.

Bobby Fleshman:

Like, I'll, I won't even have to have,

Bobby Fleshman:

uh, instruments on a fermentation.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'll,

Bobby Fleshman:

I'll know what temperature we are.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'll know what ABV we're at.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'll know the pH.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'll know the generations.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'll know where these yeast are, and I'll know how they're gonna act on any given day.

Bobby Fleshman:

I know to the extent that

Bobby Fleshman:

if the back door is open, uh, for 30

Bobby Fleshman:

minutes and it changes

Bobby Fleshman:

the air temperature on the end row of our fermenters, that that one on the far left is gonna respond one, one, uh, degree differently than all of the o- Well, it'll respond in

Bobby Fleshman:

its fermentation

Bobby Fleshman:

rate by about a percent different than the

Bobby Fleshman:

rest of those

Bobby Fleshman:

beers.

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh, it's crazy.

Bobby Fleshman:

These yeast are so

Bobby Fleshman:

cantankerous.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh, so some of it's

Bobby Fleshman:

familiarity, some of it's just

Bobby Fleshman:

the, the magic of what I remember this yeast to be.

Bobby Fleshman:

I I haven't visited Au- visited Augustiner.

Bobby Fleshman:

I've never been to Southern-- I've never been to Bavaria.

Bobby Fleshman:

I've only been to Cologne.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh, I've never been to Southern Germany, but I really want to

Bobby Fleshman:

go see some

Bobby Fleshman:

of these

Bobby Fleshman:

great breweries, including Augustiner

Decker:

I think that's a, the,

Decker:

the, a

Decker:

road tr- well, I guess air

Decker:

trip, but

Decker:

that's like the beer trip

Decker:

that uh, that the, the

Decker:

brewery needs to sponsor.

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh,

Decker:

to like

Decker:

set out, find a

Decker:

travel

Bobby Fleshman:

have Scotland on the list, and I know we have Ireland on the list as well

Bobby Fleshman:

for a pub tour

Decker:

a really--

Decker:

I

Decker:

don't know if this is even a

Decker:

something that matters,

Decker:

but you're talking about using all these generations of yeast and, um, you know, when generation after generation multiplies,

Decker:

evolution happens

Ambient Mic:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

They multiply four times in,

Bobby Fleshman:

in the tank, so

Decker:

Is there,

Decker:

is there a difference

Decker:

in the original strain,

Decker:

like a

Decker:

noticeable

Decker:

difference …than there is with what you're

Decker:

using

Bobby Fleshman:

So we,

Bobby Fleshman:

we have to be a little careful when we talk about, you know, mutation

Bobby Fleshman:

here because sometimes we're, what

Bobby Fleshman:

we're doing

Bobby Fleshman:

is we're teasing

Bobby Fleshman:

out what are called phenotypes.

Bobby Fleshman:

They're not, they're not

Bobby Fleshman:

genotypes.

Bobby Fleshman:

They're not mutating.

Bobby Fleshman:

The,

Bobby Fleshman:

the

Bobby Fleshman:

yeast are-- You're

Bobby Fleshman:

teasing out the ones that perform well in your own

Bobby Fleshman:

conditions.

Bobby Fleshman:

So the ones that don't do well with

Bobby Fleshman:

your given geometries and

Bobby Fleshman:

temperatures and all

Bobby Fleshman:

these other things,

Bobby Fleshman:

they just don't get to survive.

Bobby Fleshman:

They don't get to outcompete the ones that do.

Decker:

So

Decker:

it's just the strongest of the yeast,

Decker:

but it- Yeah … it …just maintains

Ambient Mic:

teasing out

Bobby Fleshman:

the ones of the group that

Bobby Fleshman:

ha- that express a certain way, so we're

Bobby Fleshman:

not really

Bobby Fleshman:

mutating.

Bobby Fleshman:

Now, that said,

Bobby Fleshman:

once you start to

Bobby Fleshman:

mute or to repitch a yeast, you know, 10, 100, 1,000, or 10,000

Ambient Mic:

10,000

Bobby Fleshman:

times as they've done in Germany, you actually do mutate.

Bobby Fleshman:

This is just nature

Bobby Fleshman:

at work.

Bobby Fleshman:

So you, you

Bobby Fleshman:

s-

Bobby Fleshman:

this is how lager yeast in, in part came

Bobby Fleshman:

to be.

Bobby Fleshman:

You know, uh,

Bobby Fleshman:

it was a, not a, it was a hybrid between an ale and a,

Bobby Fleshman:

and a wine strain

Bobby Fleshman:

that, that gave you the

Bobby Fleshman:

lager strain, and it

Bobby Fleshman:

was purely accidental.

Bobby Fleshman:

And,

Bobby Fleshman:

uh, we, we, they imposed the, the cooler temperatures and all the other things that led to the, the

Bobby Fleshman:

lager strain.

Bobby Fleshman:

So there, there are two kinds of things here.

Bobby Fleshman:

There's genotype and

Bobby Fleshman:

there's

Bobby Fleshman:

phenotype.

Bobby Fleshman:

Genotype is where you start to

Bobby Fleshman:

actually, um, genetically modify over time.

Bobby Fleshman:

So w- in, in our brewery, we're not really

Bobby Fleshman:

experiencing

Bobby Fleshman:

that.

Bobby Fleshman:

That

Bobby Fleshman:

said, it

Bobby Fleshman:

does happen and, but it's, when it's one out of, you know, 100 quadrillion

Bobby Fleshman:

yeast, it's who's to say if that yeast is gonna carry

Bobby Fleshman:

on downstream.

Bobby Fleshman:

But it definitely happens, and there are people that are naturally, uh, breeding, uh,

Bobby Fleshman:

yeast

Bobby Fleshman:

in the lab today, and there are others that are

Bobby Fleshman:

genetically CRISPRing,

Bobby Fleshman:

if anyone knows that word.

Bobby Fleshman:

They're actually genetically modifying

Bobby Fleshman:

the yeast and …creating

Bobby Fleshman:

what they want on demand.

Bobby Fleshman:

So there's two ways of, there's conventional and, and modern novel

Allison:

We just buy

Allison:

it directly.

Bobby Fleshman:

We need to call you after that.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh, but, but

Bobby Fleshman:

we

Bobby Fleshman:

are- And That wasn't true- It's happening though.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's definitely… Yeah,

Bobby Fleshman:

no Harvesting-

Decker:

yeah ………from your tanks- Yeah … you

Decker:

know,

Decker:

which I'm guessing

Decker:

you're

Bobby Fleshman:

right?

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah, yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Absolutely.

Ambient Mic:

You must be.

Ambient Mic:

Yeah.

Ambient Mic:

Yeah.

Ambient Mic:

Um, like,

Decker:

there's

Decker:

gotta be some mutation.

Decker:

There's gonna be changes in there- Yeah … Even if it is

Decker:

like an acci- Have you ever, in all your years of

Decker:

brewing from Oklahoma to now, have you ever had that happen where you're like, "We've been using this

Decker:

ale

Bobby Fleshman:

Yoja

Decker:

all these beers," and then all

Decker:

of a sudden

Decker:

you've done everything the same- So- ………comes out a different beer

Decker:

… Ambient Mic: magic

Bobby Fleshman:

Comes out in different beers …my magic

Bobby Fleshman:

number on the lager strains is about a dozen generations.

Bobby Fleshman:

So

Bobby Fleshman:

as I said, that's

Bobby Fleshman:

a dozen tanks times four every fermentation, so

Bobby Fleshman:

50 times, it's a 50

Bobby Fleshman:

generation, if you wanna think of it in

Bobby Fleshman:

the yeast family

Bobby Fleshman:

tree.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh,

Bobby Fleshman:

that's 50

Bobby Fleshman:

generations

Bobby Fleshman:

of y- Seriously?

Bobby Fleshman:

It's, yeah,

Bobby Fleshman:

50 generations of yeast, and then they branch sideways too, 'cause we're fermenting in multiple

Bobby Fleshman:

tanks

Bobby Fleshman:

in these generations.

Bobby Fleshman:

So there's

Bobby Fleshman:

lots

Bobby Fleshman:

and lots of ch-

Bobby Fleshman:

cousins

Allison:

Although you have shared

Allison:

how when

Allison:

you-- so when we buy yeast, so it comes

Allison:

in a

Allison:

box with a bag in it

Ambient Mic:

Very big,

Bobby Fleshman:

uh-

Allison:

big, uh- Very big box with a

Bobby Fleshman:

container.

Decker:

Do you just

Allison:

hanging out.

Allison:

Anyway, but

Bobby Fleshman:

about a 50-pound

Bobby Fleshman:

plastic container, yeah

Allison:

never happy with

Allison:

the first

Allison:

pass

Allison:

one.

Allison:

You want it to

Allison:

be, like, two or three

Bobby Fleshman:

Because it doesn't know our y- it doesn't know our brewery.

Bobby Fleshman:

So, so all of the

Bobby Fleshman:

yeasts

Allison:

really are dating

Allison:

these yeasts then.

Allison:

You like it's

Allison:

really,

Bobby Fleshman:

there- We are dating these yeasts, right?

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Allison:

to know it.

Allison:

It's just a-

Decker:

did you sleep, uh,

Decker:

well in the, the bed

Decker:

the

Decker:

first time or

Decker:

Like, the couch?

Decker:

like

Decker:

you know, like you're like "Ah, where am I?

Decker:

I

Decker:

don't know.

Decker:

This is uncomfortable."

Bobby Fleshman:

two uh, fermentations, they've Now they know our brewery.

Bobby Fleshman:

I know.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh,

Bobby Fleshman:

that's, that's exactly right.

Bobby Fleshman:

But I'll tell you that my rule of thumb is when it-- once it hits a dozen, to your point, Decker,

Bobby Fleshman:

we start to see drift.

Bobby Fleshman:

We see

Bobby Fleshman:

what we, we call genetic drift, whether I mean mutation or not.

Bobby Fleshman:

We see g-

Bobby Fleshman:

genetic drift, and we're like, "Okay. All right, all right. Let's get that back on the rails," and so we'll call up our yeast.

Bobby Fleshman:

So we work with BSI in Denver, uh,

Bobby Fleshman:

Brewing Science Institute.

Bobby Fleshman:

They're world famous for propagating yeast.

Bobby Fleshman:

And, and the thing about when you're propagating yeast, it's, you're not fermenting

Bobby Fleshman:

yeast.

Bobby Fleshman:

So

Bobby Fleshman:

when, when you're, when you're propagating yeast, what you're doing is you're giving it

Bobby Fleshman:

oxygen,

Bobby Fleshman:

and you're giving it food con- per- continuously as it multiplies.

Bobby Fleshman:

And actually, so yeast

Bobby Fleshman:

would much rather, uh, like, multiply itself, and it would much rather breathe o- breathe oxygen than not breathe oxygen.

Bobby Fleshman:

Um, so it, so it,

Bobby Fleshman:

we all?

Bobby Fleshman:

do.

Bobby Fleshman:

Right.

Bobby Fleshman:

So it actually

Bobby Fleshman:

ca-

Bobby Fleshman:

we do a lot of

Bobby Fleshman:

cancer research with yeast cells,

Bobby Fleshman:

as a matter of fact.

Allison:

don't, but

Allison:

scientists

Bobby Fleshman:

science does.

Bobby Fleshman:

Science does.

Ambient Mic:

Yeah.

Decker:

McFleshman's

Decker:

Brewing Company and

Decker:

cancer

Allison:

Cancer

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Um,

Bobby Fleshman:

anyway, so, uh,

Bobby Fleshman:

we, uh, we tend to

Bobby Fleshman:

rely on those guys to do that, that job.

Bobby Fleshman:

We don't, they don't ferment.

Bobby Fleshman:

They do what's called propagation.

Bobby Fleshman:

They give it the food,

Bobby Fleshman:

give it the nutrients, give it the oxygen, give it the heat, give

Bobby Fleshman:

it the,

Bobby Fleshman:

uh, the mechanical agitation.

Bobby Fleshman:

So when you give it, uh, a certain amount of wort, you know, sugar or malt sugar, it will convert

Bobby Fleshman:

as much of that

Bobby Fleshman:

as they can dial in

Bobby Fleshman:

into yeast cells and not into

Bobby Fleshman:

alcohol.

Bobby Fleshman:

And so w- we then take that and we, we

Bobby Fleshman:

put it into a fermentation, an anaerobic environment known

Bobby Fleshman:

as, you know,

Bobby Fleshman:

fermentation,

Bobby Fleshman:

and they go into a different, uh, uh, pathway by which to make energy.

Bobby Fleshman:

They don't prefer it, but that's what we impose on them.

Bobby Fleshman:

And, and so you can see where these yeasts that are coming in are

Bobby Fleshman:

coming from a very different world, and we throw them into what we

Bobby Fleshman:

do to them, and it takes a couple generations to

Bobby Fleshman:

get them up and running.

Allison:

To

Allison:

figure out that they need to eat the sugar and not

Allison:

just

Bobby Fleshman:

They need to actually do go through glycolysis.

Bobby Fleshman:

They don't-- They need to go through fermentation.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

So

Bobby Fleshman:

you're a physiologist.

Allison:

and poop the

Allison:

alcohol

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah, there you go.

Bobby Fleshman:

That's it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Decker:

Well, the, it's,

Decker:

that's the, one of the basis

Decker:

of a, a Bock beer is the yeast and

Decker:

the water.

Decker:

Uh,

Decker:

the malt then,

Decker:

what is

Decker:

it that we're

Decker:

like-- Because

Decker:

we, we've talked about your, uh, the Italian

Decker:

pilsner, and we've

Decker:

talked about

Decker:

the, uh, the Czech

Decker:

pilsner, and these beers are vastly

Decker:

different looking, tasting, uh, even feeling.

Decker:

So, uh,

Decker:

tell us what goes

Decker:

in in the

Decker:

malt

Decker:

back-

Bobby Fleshman:

This is, of all the

Bobby Fleshman:

beers

Bobby Fleshman:

to

Bobby Fleshman:

talk about malt, Bock is the one.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh, you know, people talk

Bobby Fleshman:

to me

Bobby Fleshman:

about, "What's your favorite beer?" Blah, blah, blah, and I'm, I'm always saying

Bobby Fleshman:

Tall Mast.

Bobby Fleshman:

These days

Bobby Fleshman:

I'm drinking a lot of our West Coast Tornado.

Bobby Fleshman:

Um, but, uh, maybe my favorite beer is our Doppelbock.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh, you just can't drink 9% Doppelbock

Bobby Fleshman:

every

Decker:

to get through

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh,

Bobby Fleshman:

I

Allison:

might

Allison:

be a good quick, uh, like the types of

Allison:

Bocks there are.

Allison:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Type…

Allison:

the- Yeah ……regular

Allison:

bock, um, which is very

Allison:

malty.

Allison:

It's basically if you were to take bread and make

Allison:

it liquid, ……that's-- it's just liquid

Allison:

bread.

Allison:

It tastes like

Allison:

the

Allison:

making bread in

Allison:

your kitchen smells.

Allison:

Um, but then

Allison:

that's a bock typically brewed in or released in the

Allison:

fall,

Allison:

and

Allison:

it's brewed over the summer.

Allison:

Um,

Allison:

and then

Allison:

you have the, uh, Maibock, which is supposed to be brewed over the winter and

Allison:

it comes out in May.

Allison:

Um, for us, it's the Lily Goat is our Maibock, um, and she's coming out soon.

Allison:

And

Bobby Fleshman:

No,

Bobby Fleshman:

unfortunately

Allison:

mind.

Allison:

Next

Allison:

year … Next year.

Decker:

to my chagrin

Bobby Fleshman:

This is, this is, FOMO.

Bobby Fleshman:

this is what we're doing

Allison:

Um, but then the doppelbock is

Allison:

the double bock, which

Allison:

is really a very

Allison:

highly concentrated-

Bobby Fleshman:

We're actually focusing on brewing

Bobby Fleshman:

that right now so we get it out by fall.

Allison:

We're actually focusing on brewing that right now- Mm … so get it out in the fall.

Allison:

Much more, um, uh,

Allison:

concentrated, uh, malt

Allison:

and alcohol.

Allison:

And then there's the

Allison:

eisbock.

Ambient Mic:

doesn't

Bobby Fleshman:

Which doesn't

Allison:

Nope,

Allison:

' cause we don't brew that

Bobby Fleshman:

we don't brew that 'cause that's illegal

Allison:

Yep,

Decker:

Yep.

Decker:

So we're not talking about

Decker:

it.

Decker:

It's just

Decker:

a happy

Decker:

accident

Decker:

…when you accidentally

Decker:

leave

Decker:

y- the, back door

Bobby Fleshman:

If you did.

Bobby Fleshman:

Mm-hmm.

Bobby Fleshman:

There's that.

Bobby Fleshman:

Anyway,

Bobby Fleshman:

so- uh, Munich, as I said, Munich malts, uh, Munich was, was wanting to

Bobby Fleshman:

get in

Bobby Fleshman:

on the game.

Bobby Fleshman:

They, they played this game a couple times, uh, trying to capitalize on what other regions are doing in the beer world.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah, so, but they're, but they have

Bobby Fleshman:

some fantastic

Bobby Fleshman:

malts, uh, made near, uh, Munich.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh, they're called Munich malts to people in the

Bobby Fleshman:

United States, and you can kiln them to higher

Bobby Fleshman:

temperatures like you could coffee, and you can tease out different bread characters, and

Bobby Fleshman:

you can mix those

Bobby Fleshman:

with their base Pilsner malt,

Bobby Fleshman:

and you can, you can tease out the ratio, the, the amplitude,

Bobby Fleshman:

if you want to use a music

Bobby Fleshman:

analogy.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah, you

Bobby Fleshman:

grab a frequency

Bobby Fleshman:

and then you

Bobby Fleshman:

increase the amplitude.

Bobby Fleshman:

Um, that's how I think of it, even though I don't write music.

Bobby Fleshman:

I, I think of it that way, and so I'll, I'll bring in

Bobby Fleshman:

a certain,

Bobby Fleshman:

uh, like a dark Munich malt and a, and a light Munich malt, and that's gonna give me like that toast right before it becomes toast, and that toast right after it becomes toast.

Bobby Fleshman:

You know that smell

Allison:

I was wondering if you

Bobby Fleshman:

smell?

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

The Maillard reaction

Bobby Fleshman:

happening.

Bobby Fleshman:

Maillard.

Ambient Mic:

Maillard.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh,

Bobby Fleshman:

you don't want to overdo

Bobby Fleshman:

that stuff,

Bobby Fleshman:

and then you blend that in.

Bobby Fleshman:

You dilute it down with that Pilsner just to get that

Bobby Fleshman:

amplitude down in check,

Bobby Fleshman:

and then, so we go

Bobby Fleshman:

s- we go 60% Pilsner on this one, and we go 30% Munich,

Bobby Fleshman:

and then we do about 4% dark Munich, and

Bobby Fleshman:

if your math is catching

Bobby Fleshman:

up

Bobby Fleshman:

there, that leaves me 6%

Bobby Fleshman:

to work with, and that last 6% is a, is a blend of, uh, caramel dark Munich.

Bobby Fleshman:

So we'll take a dark Munich

Bobby Fleshman:

and we--

Bobby Fleshman:

They.

Bobby Fleshman:

The,

Bobby Fleshman:

the Germans have

Bobby Fleshman:

a way of, of making caramel malt that's different from the way the English make it, that's different from the way that we make it in the

Bobby Fleshman:

United States,

Bobby Fleshman:

and then you really

Bobby Fleshman:

can't sub

Bobby Fleshman:

one for the other.

Bobby Fleshman:

But basically,

Bobby Fleshman:

when you do

Bobby Fleshman:

caramel

Bobby Fleshman:

malts,

Bobby Fleshman:

you,

Bobby Fleshman:

you stew

Bobby Fleshman:

the, the wort inside of the kernel

Bobby Fleshman:

itself.

Bobby Fleshman:

So you steep

Bobby Fleshman:

it at one point in the, in the

Bobby Fleshman:

process, and you, you see

Bobby Fleshman:

a little, a little, uh,

Bobby Fleshman:

I don't want to say fermentation, but you see

Bobby Fleshman:

a little, um, what am I looking for?

Bobby Fleshman:

You break the sugars down into

Bobby Fleshman:

candy,

Bobby Fleshman:

and then you heat it up real quickly before it ferments through to alcohol, and then you got what you saw.

Bobby Fleshman:

You got tiny little candy packets.

Bobby Fleshman:

Those are called caramel malts.

Bobby Fleshman:

Don't try to eat those from the bag.

Bobby Fleshman:

They really are hard.

Bobby Fleshman:

They're very, like, gravelly.

Decker:

mess your teeth up.

Ambient Mic:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Like a Skittles.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

But

Bobby Fleshman:

anyway, we grind them up, and then we put

Bobby Fleshman:

them in, and they

Bobby Fleshman:

dissolve with our mash.

Bobby Fleshman:

You don't even have to mash those.

Bobby Fleshman:

They're just, they're already sugar ready to be fermented.

Bobby Fleshman:

So you can just grind them up and throw them at the

Bobby Fleshman:

end of a mash, and then just rinse them

Bobby Fleshman:

with hot water if you wanted to.

Bobby Fleshman:

So anyway, it's those ingredients, and then we'll, we'll try to get the color right by adjusting with a little bit of dark wheat malt.

Decker:

Is--

Allison:

Not all the

Allison:

sugar

Allison:

ferments out because there's still a lot

Allison:

of sweetness

Allison:

residual in

Allison:

the

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

And, and now

Bobby Fleshman:

this is-- you

Bobby Fleshman:

opened the door wide for me there

Bobby Fleshman:

because-

Allison:

I know.

Allison:

Close it,

Allison:

Close it.

Allison:

back.

Allison:

Hold on

Decker:

Close

Ambient Mic:

back up.

Bobby Fleshman:

no, no, no, no, I just

Bobby Fleshman:

wanna say this: sweetness and maltiness aren't the same.

Bobby Fleshman:

Right.

Bobby Fleshman:

So

Bobby Fleshman:

people will oft- often say they'll think that-- and they'll, they'll

Bobby Fleshman:

put them

Bobby Fleshman:

in

Bobby Fleshman:

their head as the same

Bobby Fleshman:

thing.

Bobby Fleshman:

They're not.

Bobby Fleshman:

You can have a really dry bock with-- which my philosophy is it should be really dry, but it

Bobby Fleshman:

should drink very sweet.

Bobby Fleshman:

I don't wanna say sweet, but malty, what people would think of as sweet.

Bobby Fleshman:

And, And, once you have one that's not

Bobby Fleshman:

as dry as that, you'll know what I mean.

Bobby Fleshman:

It

Bobby Fleshman:

drinks heavy, it stays on your tongue,

Bobby Fleshman:

and it coats.

Allison:

Well, this is one of the challenges

Allison:

of So

Allison:

a Bock beer--

Allison:

So

Allison:

lagers

Allison:

typically

Allison:

have more of a,

Allison:

a danciness on the tongue.

Allison:

They're not as,

Allison:

like, thick or heavy or viscous as some of the ales or

Allison:

most of

Allison:

the ales.

Allison:

And so the crispiness that comes in just the mouthfeel, Bocks really don't have that.

Allison:

They're

Allison:

like a

Allison:

full-bodied lager-

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

And

Bobby Fleshman:

some of that's alcohol

Bobby Fleshman:

because

Bobby Fleshman:

once you go above 6%,

Allison:

gonna have

Bobby Fleshman:

increase viscosity.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

And that

Bobby Fleshman:

gives your, your-- it tricks your brain

Decker:

What are the, uh, what are the stats on the scapegoat?

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh, this is seven two

Decker:

It's a s- this is a seven- Mm-hmm.

Ambient Mic:

Mm-hmm

Bobby Fleshman:

Seven point two.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yep.

Decker:

All right.

Allison:

Yep

Decker:

Wish

Decker:

I would- it's

Decker:

not a big one.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's

Bobby Fleshman:

not a

Bobby Fleshman:

big one.

Decker:

No.

Allison:

It's subtle

Decker:

It is, it

Decker:

is very

Decker:

subtle,

Allison:

dr- when you're used to

Allison:

drinking the 3.2%

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh,

Allison:

am,

Allison:

it's like,

Bobby Fleshman:

Ooh, okay.

Bobby Fleshman:

Well, but then the doppelbock that we make is about nine, and then we have the, the barrel-aged

Bobby Fleshman:

one, which is

Bobby Fleshman:

12,

Allison:

Eisbock that

Allison:

we don't

Bobby Fleshman:

doppelbock that we don't make.

Bobby Fleshman:

No, we have the

Bobby Fleshman:

rye.

Allison:

Oh, the rye,

Allison:

yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

But then there's the one we don't make, which would

Bobby Fleshman:

be 14%

Bobby Fleshman:

if we did.

Allison:

did

Allison:

make it, but we don't

Bobby Fleshman:

The one we

Bobby Fleshman:

did make.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

El Wes.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Decker:

Um,

Decker:

the-- you said something pretty interesting though that I

Decker:

think, um, well, I need

Decker:

to know the difference so that the next time I'm drinking a beer I can say the difference, is maltiness and sweetness.

Decker:

What is the difference between that in, uh, in flavor and in

Decker:

palate?

Bobby Fleshman:

Well, right off the bat, like that, that body you get, uh, at

Bobby Fleshman:

the end, I

Bobby Fleshman:

mean the fol- the long follow through,

Bobby Fleshman:

that's

Bobby Fleshman:

gonna be sweetness.

Bobby Fleshman:

That's that

Bobby Fleshman:

cloying, like coating.

Bobby Fleshman:

You're like, "Oh, this is

Bobby Fleshman:

not making me want to

Bobby Fleshman:

drink another sip,

Bobby Fleshman:

more or less another

Bobby Fleshman:

glass."

Allison:

be sweet

Ambient Mic:

No.

Bobby Fleshman:

It shouldn't be sweet.

Bobby Fleshman:

No.

Bobby Fleshman:

But, but maltiness, you

Bobby Fleshman:

know, that, that's something different.

Bobby Fleshman:

You're drinking it and your brain is telling you that it's sweet, but then it dries up on the tongue right after.

Bobby Fleshman:

The, it, it's, it's, it's psychology.

Allison:

a chocolate malt versus a chocolate shake and you got the malt

Allison:

blended in?

Allison:

It just, it's like a t- it just, you take the little dial of sweetness and

Allison:

you just go down a notch

Allison:

when you add that

Allison:

malt.

Allison:

But it feels- It's still

Decker:

when you're drinking

Decker:

it.

Decker:

Yeah.

Decker:

But when you're

Decker:

done, you're

Decker:

l- you

Decker:

don't feel …like, uh, like your mouth is

Bobby Fleshman:

The, The,

Bobby Fleshman:

We

Bobby Fleshman:

had Randy Mosher on this podcast at some point, and

Bobby Fleshman:

he talks

Bobby Fleshman:

about how we have these Ratatouille moments in our brain.

Bobby Fleshman:

You know, the-- He-- I think Joel has said that

Bobby Fleshman:

too,

Bobby Fleshman:

and, and it-- you don't

Bobby Fleshman:

just A plus B doesn't equal C or it, it's, it's

Bobby Fleshman:

very, very difficult psychology of, of the olfactory that we're playing with here

Decker:

And

Decker:

with the flavor though of using these different malts and like exploring, you know, the, the Munich and the

Decker:

Pilsen or the Pilsner malt, um,

Decker:

and it is a

Decker:

full-bodied lager,

Decker:

which I think is

Decker:

one of the more

Decker:

interesting versions of lager because,

Decker:

you

Decker:

know, a Pilsner tastes like a Pilsner.

Decker:

Um,

Decker:

and yes, they can have depth of flavor, flavor if you're looking for

Decker:

it and like all that, but we're talking about Bock.

Decker:

What

Decker:

makes the, the

Decker:

complexity of a

Decker:

Bock so intriguing?

Allison:

Oh, that

Allison:

you can burn it.

Bobby Fleshman:

the

Bobby Fleshman:

What's the

Bobby Fleshman:

poker

Allison:

Yes.

Allison:

What's The,

Allison:

poker called Yeah, it's, it's called Bier Stockeln.

Allison:

Bier Stockeln.

Allison:

You remember?

Allison:

Bier

Bobby Fleshman:

wrote it down.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Allison:

no, wait.

Allison:

Hang on.

Allison:

Bier Stockel.

Allison:

Yeah, Bier

Allison:

Stockel.

Allison:

Yes.

Allison:

Um, this is

Allison:

translated as beer sting or beer spike.

Allison:

Um-

Bobby Fleshman:

call this Poke Your Goat Day at the brewery.

Bobby Fleshman:

So

Bobby Fleshman:

bog means goat.

Ambient Mic:

Cause

Allison:

take a,

Allison:

you take a hot poker and you stick it

Allison:

in the fire, and then you stick

Allison:

it into the-- And it onl- it works for really heavily malted beers, and the

Allison:

bocks are the

Allison:

best.

Allison:

Really hot stick into the beer, and it's basically making beer s'mores.

Allison:

It crystallizes the sugars that are still there, um, and it

Allison:

just car--

Bobby Fleshman:

And you

Bobby Fleshman:

hold it in

Allison:

crystallize it.

Allison:

I'm sorry.

Allison:

It

Bobby Fleshman:

much longer than you think you

Bobby Fleshman:

should.

Bobby Fleshman:

And, and then at the end of it, you have what is a warm marshmallow sitting on top.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's

Bobby Fleshman:

delicious.

Bobby Fleshman:

it's-

Bobby Fleshman:

so good.

Ambient Mic:

Yeah.

Allison:

And

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh, it's-

Decker:

that

Decker:

with any other

Decker:

style

Decker:

of beer

Decker:

though, right?

Bobby Fleshman:

but what happens is when

Bobby Fleshman:

you get people

Bobby Fleshman:

with hot

Bobby Fleshman:

pokers and, and high ABV beers, then they start thinking, "Let's do

Bobby Fleshman:

it

Bobby Fleshman:

to every

Allison:

Oh,

Allison:

they've done--

Bobby Fleshman:

we, tried the whole lineup.

Allison:

Hops Hops beers

Bobby Fleshman:

not

Bobby Fleshman:

do that

Bobby Fleshman:

with a 547.

Bobby Fleshman:

Was not made for that.

Decker:

Well,

Decker:

No.

Decker:

we would never desecrate a 547

Allison:

it, it caramelizes the remaining sugars, and it just adds a, a deeper complexity, um, to, to the beer.

Allison:

And it's fun too, to

Decker:

A- and it's fun, yeah.

Decker:

Fire

Decker:

and

Decker:

beer

Allison:

and beer.

Allison:

we, we've

Allison:

talked

Bobby Fleshman:

we've

Bobby Fleshman:

talked a lot about decoction, so I'm not gonna go on and on about that,

Decker:

Do

Decker:

you decoct this?

Bobby Fleshman:

We do, and-- but I will tell you that

Bobby Fleshman:

decoction, just

Bobby Fleshman:

my

Bobby Fleshman:

10-second explanation,

Bobby Fleshman:

is where we cook the grain further.

Bobby Fleshman:

So

Allison:

gonna time it.

Bobby Fleshman:

they cook it

Bobby Fleshman:

upstream, the maltsters do, and they dry it, and they give it to us.

Bobby Fleshman:

But sometimes you wanna make that fresh-out-of-the-oven flavor, so

Bobby Fleshman:

we'll, we'll further cook

Bobby Fleshman:

the grain on our system.

Bobby Fleshman:

But-

Decker:

That was

Decker:

right on for 10

Bobby Fleshman:

That

Bobby Fleshman:

was, right?

Bobby Fleshman:

under 10 seconds.

Bobby Fleshman:

There it was, right?

Bobby Fleshman:

It was a round of applause.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

So.

Decker:

for that ……because that

Decker:

was, uh, truly an,

Bobby Fleshman:

Boom, there it is.

Bobby Fleshman:

Whole round of applause.

Bobby Fleshman:

The applause

Bobby Fleshman:

is longer than the explanation.

Bobby Fleshman:

I love it.

Ambient Mic:

Uh,

Ambient Mic:

Boom.

Ambient Mic:

There it is.

Ambient Mic:

Round of applause is longer than the explanation.

Ambient Mic:

Uh,

Bobby Fleshman:

so but, you know, the brewers get tired of the extra 18 hours that that adds to a double batch.

Bobby Fleshman:

So we, we do play with what's called a melanoidin

Bobby Fleshman:

malt sometimes.

Bobby Fleshman:

A

Bobby Fleshman:

melanoidin malt is something that's very Reinheitsgebot compliant.

Bobby Fleshman:

The Germans

Bobby Fleshman:

even

Bobby Fleshman:

approve no- uh, they nod approvingly with

Bobby Fleshman:

its use, and that's

Bobby Fleshman:

where the malt itself has been sort of cooked to higher

Bobby Fleshman:

temperatures under certain conditions, and, and it encapsulates

Bobby Fleshman:

those, those

Bobby Fleshman:

melanoidins, and it's, it's

Bobby Fleshman:

on demand, ready to

Bobby Fleshman:

be used in

Bobby Fleshman:

your brew house.

Bobby Fleshman:

So we play with that a lot,

Bobby Fleshman:

and sometimes

Bobby Fleshman:

we even play with that when we decoct.

Bobby Fleshman:

So we do a little bit of layering with it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

So I will say yes, we decoct, but we also play with these,

Bobby Fleshman:

these, I don't even wanna say novel

Bobby Fleshman:

ingredients.

Bobby Fleshman:

They've been doing this

Bobby Fleshman:

for hundreds of years.

Decker:

So we

Decker:

were talking

Decker:

earlier also about the names of this.

Decker:

What's in a name?

Decker:

You know, it's,

Decker:

this, this ……beer

Decker:

has had many names,

Decker:

and I am a,

Decker:

a lover of stories.

Decker:

We're at a

Decker:

a bar

Decker:

that also sells, sells stories.

Decker:

So I think we should tell a story as to

Decker:

why

Decker:

it's now called the

Decker:

Scapegoat, and where did it

Decker:

begin?

Allison:

did

Bobby Fleshman:

What was its first name?

Bobby Fleshman:

Um,

Allison:

name?

Allison:

Um,

Allison:

oh.

Allison:

I wanna say it did start as Okay, so-

Bobby Fleshman:

want

Allison:

Development.

Allison:

Uh, y- uh, yes, or "Arrested Development." She loves that name.

Allison:

I hate this name.

Allison:

Oh my God.

Allison:

If

Allison:

we ever

Allison:

divorce, it's gonna be 'cause of beer names.

Allison:

Um, or y- By the

Bobby Fleshman:

By the way, naming a beer is much harder than anything else.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah

Allison:

no,

Allison:

um, so Bobby comes home.

Allison:

He's like, "We figured out the name

Allison:

for

Allison:

the bock." And it's like, "What?" And

Allison:

he goes, "You know,

Allison:

on 'Arrested Development,' Bob Loblaw's

Allison:

Law

Ambient Mic:

Blog." Wait, Bob- Bob Loblaw's

Allison:

I can't… Wait,

Bobby Fleshman:

Bob

Bobby Fleshman:

Loblaw's Law Blog.

Bobby Fleshman:

Law Blog

Bobby Fleshman:

So it w- it was

Bobby Fleshman:

a lawyer, attorney with his own blog?

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Bob Loblaw.

Allison:

And it was Bob

Allison:

Loblaw's is his first

Allison:

name.

Allison:

I can't even s- Bob Loblaw's Law Blog.

Allison:

So it

Ambient Mic:

So it became Bob

Bobby Fleshman:

Loblaw's Law Blog.

Bobby Fleshman:

So then it became Bob Loblaw's Law Blog.

Allison:

became Bob…

Allison:

Loblaw's Law Bock.

Allison:

What did you think we were

Bobby Fleshman:

Was that Henry Winkler or was that

Allison:

No, that was, um… No, it was, uh, uh,

Allison:

Charles in Charge.

Allison:

Oh, yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Okay, yeah.

Allison:

God, what was his name?

Allison:

You're

Allison:

too

Allison:

young, Oh, no.

Decker:

watch the show.

Decker:

Thank you

Bobby Fleshman:

Bob Loblaw had a, had a law blog.

Decker:

good

Allison:

What's his na- anyway, it, it was an awful name.

Allison:

So

Bobby Fleshman:

So

Bobby Fleshman:

we named it Bob Loblaw's Law

Allison:

So we named it Bob Loblaw's Law Bock.

Allison:

No, we didn't.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yes, we did, for two years.

Ambient Mic:

So

Allison:

then, um,

Allison:

we needed…

Allison:

The

Allison:

Maibock was

Allison:

named Walk in the Park- Yep … Maibock, and that was too hard.

Allison:

And we didn't know

Allison:

what we were doing,

Allison:

um, as Gary's pointed out many times.

Allison:

Um, and so we learned that we needed to make more succinct, short names.

Allison:

And the goat homage,

Allison:

so we named our Maibock

Allison:

Lily Goat, and then we thought,

Allison:

"Oh, it'd be really great to name the bock

Allison:

not Lo- Bob Loblaw's Law

Allison:

Bock."

Bobby Fleshman:

we have this employee named Alex Schultz

Bobby Fleshman:

"…But

Bobby Fleshman:

to

Allison:

to

Allison:

name

Allison:

it something goat."

Allison:

And we have an employee who is the

Allison:

scapegoat on

Allison:

everything that goes wrong in

Allison:

the

Allison:

brewery

Bobby Fleshman:

he, is-- We love him so

Allison:

He is, one, he's the brother that you

Allison:

never

Allison:

had.

Allison:

He is so,

Bobby Fleshman:

We

Bobby Fleshman:

wanna kill him so much

Bobby Fleshman:

… Allison: I love Joel him so much …friend of our family.

Bobby Fleshman:

We love him dearly.

Ambient Mic:

him dearly.

Allison:

But he will forever leave half-drank 547s

Allison:

everywhere.

Bobby Fleshman:

There, have been

Bobby Fleshman:

days where

Decker:

has

Decker:

become

Bobby Fleshman:

has been a Skilsaw sitting right in

Bobby Fleshman:

front of the POS, which is where you buy your beer, when we open

Bobby Fleshman:

after he has,

Bobby Fleshman:

quote, "finished a project."

Bobby Fleshman:

So there's tools

Bobby Fleshman:

everywhere, and

Bobby Fleshman:

there's a nail gun over here, and there's

Bobby Fleshman:

a

Bobby Fleshman:

saw there, like-

Allison:

out, like,

Bobby Fleshman:

But he,

Bobby Fleshman:

but, but, he's,

Bobby Fleshman:

doing the job, so we're throwing him under the bus.

Bobby Fleshman:

So any- but anyway.

Bobby Fleshman:

so- he got blamed for

Bobby Fleshman:

everything-

Allison:

brewery cat.

Bobby Fleshman:

He's like the brewery cat … even if he didn't

Bobby Fleshman:

always do it.

Ambient Mic:

cat … even if

Decker:

So here we go

Ambient Mic:

do it.

Ambient Mic:

He's

Bobby Fleshman:

He is the brewery cat.

Bobby Fleshman:

So Scapegoat was, was named after Alex

Bobby Fleshman:

Schultz …at the end of the day.

Decker:

Um, I did

Decker:

look up who Bob Law was.

Decker:

Um, it's Bob

Decker:

Loblaw, and it's played

Decker:

by Scott

Decker:

Baio

Allison:

Palfeo.

Allison:

Gosh dang it.

Allison:

That was it.

Allison:

Oh

Decker:

uh,

Decker:

the catchphrase, "Why should

Decker:

you go

Decker:

to jail for

Decker:

a crime someone

Decker:

else

Decker:

noticed?"

Decker:

That

Decker:

feels really on

Allison:

So arrested Development.

Allison:

That's so great.

Allison:

That's very much a scapegoat right

Allison:

there.

Allison:

So

Bobby Fleshman:

our doppelbock is an equally dumb name, which I love

Allison:

dumb name.

Allison:

Oh.

Allison:

And I think we've talked about that on the show before- but it's just so much fun to

Bobby Fleshman:

Triple

Bobby Fleshman:

Debacle Doppelbock.

Bobby Fleshman:

And if-- tune

Bobby Fleshman:

into that episode whenever that happened.

Bobby Fleshman:

There are

Bobby Fleshman:

three reasons why we say

Bobby Fleshman:

Triple Debacle.

Ambient Mic:

Let's

Decker:

We'll see

Decker:

how long we can do the podcast for while drinking it and

Decker:

then

Allison:

No.

Allison:

That one's the 12%, isn't

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah,

Bobby Fleshman:

when it's barrel aged, yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

That's the rye.

Allison:

rye.

Allison:

But then, yeah,

Allison:

so then the, the rye barrel-aged

Allison:

Triple Debacle

Bobby Fleshman:

Debauchery.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Allison:

is Triple Debauchery Rye.

Allison:

Yeah

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh, we didn't mention

Bobby Fleshman:

hops, but I don't know how much we've talked about hops, uh, from Seitz Farm in Germany, but we use, uh, hops from a tiny little farm in Germany, which we will visit on this trip that we're going on, right?

Bobby Fleshman:

Yes, yes, yes.

Bobby Fleshman:

yes.

Bobby Fleshman:

Seitz Farm is just

Bobby Fleshman:

magnificent.

Bobby Fleshman:

We use Perle, Perle hops on this.

Bobby Fleshman:

Delicious.

Decker:

What does, um… Because this isn't w- If people are like,

Decker:

" I don't like hoppy beer."

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh yeah, I Shouldn't maybe even mention

Decker:

yeah,

Decker:

this is the one that you'd

Decker:

be like- "All right, fine, take this."

Bobby Fleshman:

But, you've gotta have those hops, otherwise it's, this will present

Bobby Fleshman:

as cloying.

Bobby Fleshman:

yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

it balances.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah

Allison:

is a-- No, I am a very-- I don't, I'm not anti-hop.

Allison:

I just don't like

Allison:

to taste the hops.

Allison:

And

Allison:

this, there's no

Allison:

taste of hops

Decker:

That's-- That does

Decker:

seem like you're

Decker:

anti-hop,

Allison:

It

Bobby Fleshman:

But I, but I still

Bobby Fleshman:

argue that

Allison:

I like it there.

Allison:

I'm inclusive to hops.

Allison:

I really

Bobby Fleshman:

you don't just go pull a commodity hop off the shelf, though, once you put this much into a, a lager like this.

Bobby Fleshman:

So it does matter what

Bobby Fleshman:

you use, even if it doesn't jump

Bobby Fleshman:

out

Allison:

Oh, I trust you.

Allison:

I trust you

Allison:

to blend

Allison:

the hops such that I don't taste

Allison:

them, and

Allison:

it's

Decker:

So tell us,

Decker:

um, it's a Perla, is that what it's called?

Decker:

Perla.

Decker:

Okay.

Decker:

What, um, what

Decker:

flavors are you getting

Decker:

from the

Decker:

hops in this

Bobby Fleshman:

an, you

Bobby Fleshman:

get just a little

Bobby Fleshman:

spiciness 'cause

Bobby Fleshman:

you're, you're

Bobby Fleshman:

wanting to get a little bit-- You wanna, you wanna knock the edge off of that sweeter character.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh, you

Bobby Fleshman:

s-

Bobby Fleshman:

you wanna stay away from some of those

Bobby Fleshman:

lemon characters you might get from, like, your Saaz.

Bobby Fleshman:

You know, you don't want, you don't want anything citrusy to

Bobby Fleshman:

pop out.

Bobby Fleshman:

And when I say citrusy, I'm

Bobby Fleshman:

not talking

Bobby Fleshman:

about Pacific

Bobby Fleshman:

Northwest

Bobby Fleshman:

level citrus

Bobby Fleshman:

here.

Bobby Fleshman:

These are all in context.

Decker:

These all in context.

Decker:

It's like

Decker:

LaCroix type of

Decker:

citrus.

Ambient Mic:

exactly.

Bobby Fleshman:

type of citrus.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah, exactly.

Bobby Fleshman:

But it matters on a beer like this.

Bobby Fleshman:

Um, and some of it is just,

Bobby Fleshman:

again, synergy, and you, you

Bobby Fleshman:

play with it.

Bobby Fleshman:

We tried Herzbrucker, and we try Perle, and we try this farm, and

Bobby Fleshman:

we try that farm, and, and,

Bobby Fleshman:

like, I'm loving Herzbrucker in our Helles.

Bobby Fleshman:

It gives us a little bit

Bobby Fleshman:

more citrus,

Bobby Fleshman:

believe it or not, and it really makes it pop.

Decker:

What is,

Decker:

um, you know, it-- you're a small brewery, family-owned and operated.

Decker:

Um,

Decker:

does--

Decker:

how much does that play

Decker:

into the hop selection and, oh,

Decker:

I guess all the

Decker:

ingredients of the selections that you make when you look at the companies that you work with?

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah,

Bobby Fleshman:

big time, especially with these hop growers.

Bobby Fleshman:

Um, the, the

Ambient Mic:

maltsters,

Bobby Fleshman:

maltsters, we don't have direct contact with a lot of the farmers, but when it comes to the hop growers, we-- I mean, we're not, I'm not, like, directly

Bobby Fleshman:

in contact with these farmers,

Bobby Fleshman:

but I work through brokers to get

Bobby Fleshman:

access to them.

Bobby Fleshman:

Someday

Bobby Fleshman:

we'll be big enough that we'll be able to buy pallets direct from

Bobby Fleshman:

these farms,

Bobby Fleshman:

but it's incredibly important to, to us to, to do that.

Bobby Fleshman:

These hops are,

Bobby Fleshman:

you know, they've been cultivated

Bobby Fleshman:

for how many centuries on this

Bobby Fleshman:

one hill and in this one climate, and I think it really matters.

Bobby Fleshman:

And, And, I am a big malt fan.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'm not trying to downplay all that, but, but the f- the farming

Bobby Fleshman:

really matters when it comes to hops.

Bobby Fleshman:

You can't just, you can't just mass produce

Bobby Fleshman:

what they're

Bobby Fleshman:

doing in some of these

Bobby Fleshman:

fields out there

Decker:

You--

Decker:

know, we

Decker:

talk a lot about, um, vibes with

Decker:

beers and like,

Decker:

and what you're, how you're feeling with stuff.

Decker:

What--

Decker:

To me,

Decker:

a Bock

Decker:

beer doesn't seem like

Decker:

one that you would drink in the summertime 'cause it, it

Decker:

does, it tastes

Decker:

like

Decker:

fall to me.

Decker:

Um, what is the ideal setting for, uh, a s- a pint of Scapegoat?

Bobby Fleshman:

Well, it's

Bobby Fleshman:

not

Decker:

For you.

Decker:

Let, let's ……just make it hyper-specific just for you.

Ambient Mic:

Poke that

Allison:

sucker with a

Allison:

hot

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

I mean, uh,

Decker:

Hope that sucker works.

Decker:

Surrounded by

Decker:

150 of

Decker:

your closest

Allison:

Yeah.

Allison:

Surrounded by 150

Allison:

of

Decker:

fire and a

Allison:

No, I

Bobby Fleshman:

a bratwurst

Bobby Fleshman:

with this if you eat meat.

Bobby Fleshman:

yeah

Allison:

I do think that having it, um, it definitely needs

Allison:

to be cold.

Allison:

You need to be wearing a coat when

Allison:

you're

Allison:

drinking it.

Allison:

Um,

Allison:

especially

Bobby Fleshman:

you're not cigar ready with this.

Bobby Fleshman:

I think that's a doppelbock.

Bobby Fleshman:

That's

Bobby Fleshman:

right.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Allison:

is a doppelbock, but this is like

Allison:

fall weather.

Allison:

You've got your coat

Allison:

' cause you haven't acclimated to winter's coming.

Allison:

Um,

Bobby Fleshman:

I remember that

Bobby Fleshman:

Stephanie Harvey, she used to do sales for us, and

Bobby Fleshman:

it

Bobby Fleshman:

was our doppelbock

Bobby Fleshman:

that she said this about.

Bobby Fleshman:

But she said it

Bobby Fleshman:

pairs well with,

Bobby Fleshman:

she said something like, she was being snarky, "Pairs

Bobby Fleshman:

well with like pretzels and

Bobby Fleshman:

bratwurst and fancy shit."

Bobby Fleshman:

that w- that was

Bobby Fleshman:

the description just to see if anyone

Bobby Fleshman:

ever read it.

Bobby Fleshman:

But it was I would say, yeah, like a, a cold afternoon- Yeah Yeah

Decker:

say, yeah,

Decker:

like a,

Decker:

a cold afternoon

Decker:

and

Allison:

You have to wear a coat

Allison:

… Decker: yeah,

Allison:

early onset of seasonal

Allison:

depression

Allison:

Yep, yep, yep.

Allison:

The Bock is there for you.

Ambient Mic:

Yeah.

Decker:

That go- will

Allison:

the Maibock is a lot lighter.

Bobby Fleshman:

Maibock?

Bobby Fleshman:

We just

Bobby Fleshman:

glossed over

Bobby Fleshman:

that.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Ambient Mic:

to talk about the different-

Bobby Fleshman:

We need to talk about the difference.

Bobby Fleshman:

Even though we don't have one

Bobby Fleshman:

this year,

Bobby Fleshman:

damn it.

Bobby Fleshman:

Um, I hear that our, all of our friends everywhere have it, and I'm really jealous.

Bobby Fleshman:

I wanna go drink all their bock, their Maibock this spring.

Ambient Mic:

Well, go try one 'cause they're good.

Bobby Fleshman:

Well, go try one.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's so good.

Bobby Fleshman:

Um, yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

So with a Maibock, you're really, you're gonna, you're actually gonna pull the reins back

Bobby Fleshman:

on that maltiness.

Bobby Fleshman:

You're gonna

Bobby Fleshman:

amplify that hoppiness.

Bobby Fleshman:

Now,

Bobby Fleshman:

but

Bobby Fleshman:

you're gonna maintain that ABV, so

Bobby Fleshman:

it's still not like you're drinking session pilsners

Allison:

That's not a lawnmower beer.

Decker:

No.

Bobby Fleshman:

No.

Bobby Fleshman:

No, just because it looks a little lighter, it doesn't mean it is.

Bobby Fleshman:

So you're, you're

Bobby Fleshman:

t- you're-- There's that fulcrum.

Bobby Fleshman:

You move it a little bit away from the malt back into the hops.

Bobby Fleshman:

You're looking for something a little fresher, a little remind, reminds you more of spring, you know, more floral.

Bobby Fleshman:

And I, I like my Maibocks to be a little bit more bitter actually to stand

Bobby Fleshman:

apart

Allison:

we named ours the Lily Goat because of that floral nature

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah, and then we'll barrel age that and we call it, uh… What do we call our barrel-aged lily goat?

Bobby Fleshman:

Float Your Goat.

Bobby Fleshman:

Float Your Goat.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

That's a, a, uh, what do we do?

Bobby Fleshman:

A bourbon barrel?

Bobby Fleshman:

Yes.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah, that's delicious.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Decker:

one of my favorites, uh,

Decker:

flavors.

Decker:

I guess I just really like bocks,

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh,

Bobby Fleshman:

Box are the-

Decker:

like doppelbock ……and this bock that

Decker:

we just had is just

Decker:

like, oh

Decker:

my gosh, it's so

Decker:

good.

Bobby Fleshman:

I would

Bobby Fleshman:

say

Bobby Fleshman:

Desert Island, but I don't know

Bobby Fleshman:

if you're gonna pound seven, eight,

Decker:

Maybe

Decker:

like a, like a fall desert island ……where it's

Decker:

like deciduous

Decker:

trees all

Bobby Fleshman:

Maybe like a, like a fall Desert Island.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Like it's, it's- Alaskan Desert Island.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Decker:

Dodgy polar bears.

Decker:

Um-

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah, I'll go for that

Decker:

um, but the, the Maibock, last

Decker:

spring I got really into

Decker:

it,

Decker:

and Woodman's for some reason had like a whole

Decker:

cooler full of local Maibock flavors, and,

Decker:

um, one of the things that I noticed was that some

Decker:

of them had a very underlying flavor

Decker:

of like a mint type of, like

Decker:

a herbal mint.

Decker:

Not, not like wintergreen gum or anything, but like

Decker:

just

Decker:

that little of fresh…

Bobby Fleshman:

Again,

Decker:

hop is giving me

Decker:

that?

Bobby Fleshman:

it could be the Saphir is one that

Bobby Fleshman:

we're, we're kind of playing with in our pilsners now, and the, and the, Admiral's another one.

Bobby Fleshman:

Uh, you

Bobby Fleshman:

can probably find a Saaz

Bobby Fleshman:

give you that.

Bobby Fleshman:

It, y- it's

Bobby Fleshman:

a lot

Bobby Fleshman:

dependent, too.

Bobby Fleshman:

We don't wanna, like, say every Saaz tastes like this and every Perle tastes like that.

Bobby Fleshman:

You have to find that farmer, that lot, that

Bobby Fleshman:

season,

Bobby Fleshman:

um, and then play with it.

Bobby Fleshman:

It, again, it's never gonna-- You can't

Bobby Fleshman:

just

Bobby Fleshman:

rub it.

Bobby Fleshman:

I've seen, and

Bobby Fleshman:

I do the rub, then I'll smell it.

Bobby Fleshman:

But you have to

Bobby Fleshman:

brew with

Bobby Fleshman:

these ingredients to

Bobby Fleshman:

know

Bobby Fleshman:

how it really comes

Bobby Fleshman:

out, not, not

Bobby Fleshman:

just

Bobby Fleshman:

because of the brewing, but because of the ingredients that you blend it with.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's going to change its

Bobby Fleshman:

expression.

Bobby Fleshman:

But if they're a little fresher, yeah, yeah, I, I tend to think that

Bobby Fleshman:

we, we use

Bobby Fleshman:

more late hops in the

Bobby Fleshman:

process, at least

Bobby Fleshman:

we do with our Maibock, really trying to give you a little bit of a nose.

Bobby Fleshman:

So even if we just use Perle, just as we do with our Scapegoat, we would move it forward in the boil, and then

Bobby Fleshman:

it's gonna

Bobby Fleshman:

maintain those oils, and maybe those oils would, would,

Bobby Fleshman:

would express more, as you say, mint

Bobby Fleshman:

at the end of the day.

Decker:

And like you said, it, it does remain with that,

Decker:

uh, that alcohol

Decker:

content, so it is a little

Decker:

deceiving.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Allison:

Beware

Decker:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

For sure.

Bobby Fleshman:

That it doesn't--

Bobby Fleshman:

all the bocks are gonna drink like that.

Bobby Fleshman:

I think you can, there's a, people will call them like a, a golden bock.

Bobby Fleshman:

I've seen that.

Bobby Fleshman:

I'm not sure even what that is.

Bobby Fleshman:

That's not, that's

Bobby Fleshman:

a made up

Bobby Fleshman:

American

Bobby Fleshman:

style.

Decker:

I feel

Decker:

like anytime they say golden anything,

Decker:

it's just like, well,

Decker:

you just didn't have any idea of what

Decker:

you were doing

Allison:

That's exactly what it

Bobby Fleshman:

and I'm staring at

Bobby Fleshman:

a golden lager we have on tap here at the bookstore

Bobby Fleshman:

so

Bobby Fleshman:

I'm, I have to eat my own words.

Ambient Mic:

it's, But I've

Allison:

Is that the stowaway?

Bobby Fleshman:

but I've

Bobby Fleshman:

never

Bobby Fleshman:

had golden

Bobby Fleshman:

Bock, as it

Bobby Fleshman:

were.

Decker:

you're

Decker:

on the-- Where's the spotlight?

Decker:

Put

Decker:

it on.

Decker:

What

Bobby Fleshman:

have the Coors style too.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

Right.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

So admittedly, we,

Bobby Fleshman:

we're always be- we're sandwiched

Bobby Fleshman:

between the demands of the market

Allison:

Is, the golden lager the stowaway?

Allison:

Yeah.

Allison:

Well, yeah, it's 'cause we didn't have a name for

Allison:

it.

Allison:

That makes sense.

Allison:

Yep.

Allison:

Exactly.

Allison:

Perfect.

Allison:

Par for the course.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yep.

Bobby Fleshman:

Have we done that one?

Bobby Fleshman:

We'll do that one soon, "The Stowaway." No, we

Bobby Fleshman:

won't.

Allison:

No, we

Allison:

won't 'cause

Allison:

that's

Allison:

a one-time thing.

Bobby Fleshman:

Which is why we should do it q- quick before it's gone.

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh, it's really well.

Bobby Fleshman:

I

Bobby Fleshman:

know.

Bobby Fleshman:

It's

Allison:

I would just like to do it quick

Decker:

Love that.

Decker:

Um, all right, well, we're at tardigrade's Bookshelf here in, um, do we call this downtown appleton still?

Decker:

Yes.

Decker:

Yes, absolutely we call this downtown appleton.

Decker:

Um, and McFleshman's you have, uh, you guys have multiple beers on tap here.

Decker:

Uh, we've just been talking about the box.

Decker:

Um, what else do we-- What's gonna draw us here from y- your beverage

Bobby Fleshman:

Beverage side?

Bobby Fleshman:

Oh, the cherry cider for sure.

Bobby Fleshman:

Exactly.

Bobby Fleshman:

This is the only place I know of that has our ch- our cherry cider

Allison:

The only place I know of that has our, our cherry cider.

Allison:

We've got some NA options here as well.

Allison:

Our, uh, McCroix, which is fun sparkling water.

Allison:

Um, but then, yeah, they've got a lot of selection,

Allison:

but they also just have such a wonderful space.

Allison:

Um, I've been here with a

Allison:

girlfriend to drink coffee and just chat.

Allison:

Um, came here, uh, for the Science Society, um, had some lovely beers and conversations.

Allison:

And so, um, if our tap room is full, which I really hope it is all the time- Yeah … um, you can wander on down, um, and enjoy our beers also at Tardigrade's Bookshelf.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yes, they have 547

Allison:

It is at

Allison:

547 West Avenue … buy a book too.

Decker:

Yes.

Decker:

Beers and books goes

Bobby Fleshman:

Word is they will custom bind books for you.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman:

there's that.

Bobby Fleshman:

Wow.

Bobby Fleshman:

Yep.

Bobby Fleshman:

Mm-hmm.

Bobby Fleshman:

There's a thing.

Allison:

Oh, my

Decker:

we're getting nods from the

Allison:

Yay

Decker:

I think that's a, that's a yay.

Decker:

Um,

Katherine:

there.

Decker:

Tell us about What's yourself.

Decker:

What's your name?

Decker:

Where you come from?

Decker:

What do you

Decker:

do?

Decker:

Oh, I can see you

Katherine:

Uh, my name is

Katherine:

Katherine, and I own Tardigrade's Bookshelf in the VFW building with my husband,

Katherine:

and we're high school sweethearts from Neenah.

Decker:

Love it all the way back.

Decker:

I love that.

Decker:

Um, what was

Decker:

th-the inspir-- When I first

Decker:

saw

Decker:

this, the sign in

Decker:

the window driving to work, I was

like:

What

like:

do you mean

like:

book bar?

like:

And, um,

like:

so what do you mean

like:

book bar?

Katherine:

Um, Books and beer

Decker:

Yes.

Allison:

But really, if you haven't been to Tardigrade Bookshelf, it's amazing.

Allison:

You should check out the space.

Allison:

I'm a huge fan.

Decker:

Yeah.

Decker:

Uh, first time here, won't be the last time.

Decker:

A big thanks to, uh,

Decker:

to Kathryn.

Decker:

Thank you for for hosting us here.

Decker:

Uh, this has been great.

Decker:

And, uh, thank you all for coming out to, uh, "Respecting

Decker:

the Beer." Uh, it's gonna put a wrap on this episode of "Respecting the beer." The show is produced by David Kalsow with music by Sarah Lynn Huss.

Decker:

Be sure to join the

Decker:

Facebook group to connect between episodes and support the show over

Decker:

on Patreon, where you can get uncut episodes, access to specially brewed beer, and

Decker:

more.

Decker:

Until next time, please remember to respect the beer

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