Russian River Brewing Co's Vinnie Cilurzo on Pliny the Elder and Hops

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McFleshman's: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Respecting the Beer.

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My name is Gary Yad.

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With me as usual are the good doctors, Allison and Bobby, owners of the Mc Fleshman Brewing Company, and, uh, maybe have also been the accidental creators of some icebox this year.

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I don't know, we've had some really cold weather the last couple weeks.

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Terrible memories.

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We have.

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Don't wanna, it's actually Bobby just forgot to leave, you know?

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Forgot to bring the barrel back in.

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Yeah.

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He's really just forgetful that way.

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Oops.

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Also with us back on the show number one Replicant Hunter Decker.

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Yes.

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I'm glad you got the reference.

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Yeah, of course.

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Yes.

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The hike.

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Good to be here.

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I'm thirsty as always.

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And, uh, we got a great guest today because, uh, Vinny, you don't know this, but every time someone from around here goes to California, they come back with, uh, a bottle of one of your beers.

Speaker: 00:00:56

So we can always do a testing here.

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And, uh, we got Vinny Zo, is that

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:01:02

Yep.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:01:02

Nailed it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:01:04

McFleshman's: from Russian River Brewing?

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:01:06

And, uh, there's probably a whole bunch of things you're gonna find out from this end that you probably aren't even aware of in terms of beers and other things that, uh, have been inspired by you.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:01:18

Uh, so why don't we start out, and we, we kind of asked this to everyone who, who's a brewer or involved with beer, how in the world did you get started with this and why?

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:01:27

Um, yeah, I actually started in wine.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:01:30

I grew up in a wine making family down in Southern California.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:01:34

There's a now not so small wine region in the town of Temecula.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:01:38

Temecula is maybe hour north of San Diego, hour and a half, two hours south of la.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:01:43

Probably on paper the largest like population of a wine region anywhere in the world within, you know, a couple hours.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:01:50

So I've, I've always had fermentation in my blood, uh, when I, uh, went off to San Diego to go to college, uh, about a year in, I. Moved in with a couple of friends and they were really into beer and we started home brewing and that was the, uh, that was the beginning of it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:02:05

So kind of typical story, uh, home brewing.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:02:08

And then, uh, about a year, year and a half later, I took a trip to Europe and just did a year rail pass and just hit a bunch of beer stuff there.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:02:15

That was obviously pretty cool.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:02:16

And then came back and went to help, uh, my folks back at the winery.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:02:20

And that's like having the ultimate home brew set up.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:02:24

So I would, you know, work in the winery during the day.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:02:26

And then at night I would, I would home brew.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:02:29

And so, you know, slope floors, trench drains, all the, the, the great things that the average home brewer doesn't have.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:02:36

McFleshman's: You were spoiled from the

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:02:38

Yeah, so it meant having a boil over wasn't that big of a deal.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:02:41

And you know, as, as all home brewers know, boil over is the absolute worst, especially if it's on your kitchen stove.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:02:48

So anyways, that was, that was it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:02:51

And was very much involved, uh, with the home brew community in southern California.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:02:56

The Southern California Home Brewers Festival, which is still going on.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:03:00

The first five years actually was at my family's winery property.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:03:04

And yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:03:05

And then eventually I opened a brewery in Temecula called Blind Pig, which is our IPA now.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:03:11

So we own the trademark again.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:03:14

And that was just a little seven barrel cobbled together, uh, brewery that you know, we put together with a shoestring.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:03:20

I had a couple business partners and, but a, after a few years I left and, sold my part to my partners and moved up to Northern California.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:03:29

By this point, Natalie and I were married and, uh, she was continuing on school, went to work in the wine industry, and I found a job with the brand new brewery, uh, called Russian River Brewing Company.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:03:41

And it was, uh, started by Corbel Champagne Cellars.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:03:44

You guys are in Wisconsin, right?

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:03:46

McFleshman's: Mm-hmm.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:03:46

Mm-hmm.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:03:47

The largest consumers of Corbell, Brandy

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:03:50

McFleshman's: Oh yes,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:03:52

And, uh, yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:03:54

And they, uh, when I was at Corbell, like a third of the brandy was all sold in Wisconsin,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:00

McFleshman's: It's that old fashioned.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:01

Yeah, old fashioned.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:02

And that started, I think around World War II is when that became the brand that was the dominant brandy.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:08

But brand, the old fashioned is pretty much the state cocktail.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:12

Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:12

Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:13

And I think it's predominantly with corbel brandy.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:16

So anyways, uh, fun, fun fact right there.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:20

Um, but yeah, after, uh, six years or so, corbel decided to get outta the beer business and they offered me a wine making job.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:27

Um, but I actually turned it down and my boss says, well, what are you, what are you gonna do?

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:32

And I said, well, I'd love to keep Russian River Brewing going.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:35

And, you know, while this was happening, Natalie was working in the wine industry.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:39

She had finished school.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:40

And so I ended up trading my severance package for the Russian River name.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:45

Uh, we had already made Pliny the Elder and a couple other beers that we still make now.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:49

So, those were part of the deal.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:51

And, uh, oddly we had a quarter acre hop yard and we, we got that out.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:55

I got that out of the deal as well.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:04:57

So, um, that's, that's, uh, that's how we ended up.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:00

With Russian River Brewery, we reopened it in 2004 with 30 investors, and Natalie joined me to run the brewery.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:07

And uh, here we are, uh, you know, in the industry now more than 30 years.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:12

So,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:13

McFleshman's: Wow.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:14

You said something I have to ask you about.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:15

I was gonna ask it anyhow.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:18

You said Pliny the elder.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:21

Now as a student of Latin.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:25

The person, uh, which I assume you're referencing is, was named Plin the

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:29

Yeah, exactly.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:31

McFleshman's: the change in pronunciation?

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:33

Well, I'm not even sure how that happened.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:35

It just kind of happened over time.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:37

And as Natalie likes to say, the beer is Pliny, the person is Plin.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:41

But I, I actually don't know the answer to that question.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:43

It, it just, it just kind of happened over time and people started pronouncing it that way.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:48

And, uh, plus a, a tiny pliny doesn't roll off the tongue as much as a tiny Pliny when you have a, a 10 ounce like I'm having right now.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:57

So.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:57

Good.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:05:58

McFleshman's: I was gonna ask what's in your glass tonight?

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:06:00

I've got two.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:06:01

I've got, uh, plenty of the elder, which was bottled last week.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:06:05

McFleshman's: Oh, wow.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:06:06

got a little packaging, uh, lab and uh, in, in there is a fridge.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:06:10

And so every canner bottle that gets packaged, um, it goes in there for Natalie and I to bring home.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:06:16

And a lot of those end up in sensory as well.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:06:18

Every week we have a sensory lab upstairs, but this is, uh, you know, to me it's a different drinking experience, you know, tasting a couple ounces at a time or you know, having a bottle and drinking the whole thing.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:06:29

And then I actually have a second beer that's Dr.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:06:32

Ron, that's a New Zealand IPA that we just, uh, keg last week.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:06:37

So I brought a crowler home.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:06:38

McFleshman's: That's funny, or I, I was inspired to make, uh, New Zealand IPA based on yours and other people's efforts in that we, we have one we're drinking right now with, uh, nectar on and AKA I

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:06:50

Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:06:50

This, this has a lot of nectar on in it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:06:52

That's my favorite New Zealand hop, in fact, nectar on is now in Blind Pig, IPA and Pliny the Elder.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:06:59

Our,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:06:59

McFleshman's: Oh, wow.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:07:00

being our top selling beer and blind pig being number two.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:07:03

But, um, yeah, I really love the impact you get.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:07:06

It doesn't take a lot of New Zealand hops to be super impactful on the beer.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:07:10

And the beer is that one's named after the famous New Zealand hop breeder, Ron Beatson, who, um, pretty much is the Michael Jordan of hop breeders in New Zealand.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:07:21

He bred aka Moka Nelson, Savin, Dr. Ron or, uh, Nel, uh, nectar on is his hop.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:07:30

Super Delic kind of a new one.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:07:31

That's his.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:07:32

And then there's still a couple of experimentals that are in the pipeline gonna get named, um, that were his as well before he retired.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:07:40

So super, super cool guy.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:07:42

McFleshman's: We, we only have you for a limited time, so there's a ton of rabbit holes that we can go down based on what you were just talking about there.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:07:49

Uh, I feel like maybe we should do a 30,000 foot view of the history of, of Pliny the Elder.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:07:55

I think that's such an, an iconic beer.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:07:57

And you talk about how you're still tinkering, and I've heard that before and that's, that's, that's fascinating.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:08:01

I don't know what you wanna say about all that.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:08:03

Yeah, so it, uh, it all started when the brewery was at Corbel and it was 1999, I believe it was, and one of our accounts in Hayward, which is in the East Bay, so kind of Oakland area, uh, called the Bistro was having a, uh.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:08:20

A a an IPA festival or double IPA festival.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:08:23

I guess it wasn't he knew that I had made, I had made a, a double IPAA blind pig in 1994.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:08:29

It as the first beer I ever brewed there.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:08:30

And if you look at the beer history, I'm credited with making the first modern, uh, era double IPA.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:08:38

So anyways, uh, he knew that I'd made one.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:08:40

Uh, and so I, I made a beer for the, uh, the festival and Natalie and I were trying to look for a name.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:08:46

And we had this old beer dictionary that the Brew Association had published, and we looked up hops and then hops referenced.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:08:53

And before that we were looking for a name that was maybe larger than life or something that was like big, you know, like.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:09:01

Mammoth was already taken.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:09:03

There's a mammoth brewery here.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:09:04

We started thinking about like large format wine bottles, like Methuselah, Nebuchadnezzar, those sort of things that didn't quite fit what we were doing or think we are looking for.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:09:14

And so we started looking in the dictionary and we look up hops and then hops referenced, uh, ulu loop list, which is the botanical name, and then that referenced the original botanical name, which is Lupus Arius.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:09:26

And that is where p plenty of the elder came in because it was he and his contemporaries, uh, that uh, wrote about hops and we're the first to write about hops.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:09:35

And we saw his name and where like, oh, that's perfect.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:09:38

So that's where the name came from.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:09:40

And then his adopted son and nephew is Pliny the younger.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:09:45

And so we make a beer Pliny the younger, and we just are starting distributing that today.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:09:50

So that's a triple IPA.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:09:52

McFleshman's: Day.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:09:52

Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:09:53

Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:09:53

So, um, yeah, so that's, uh, that's, and that's just a, a once a year, technically twice a year release.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:00

We make it, we make younger initially very first of the year, and then we release it in February for distribution and then we will brew it again at the end of February and in March from March 20th to April 2nd, our is the 14 days of in-person younger.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:17

So there's two, and we've, we've done iterations of, um, Pliny the Elder.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:22

We do a double dry hop version, uh, every four years on the presidential election cycle.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:28

Pliny runs for president, so we have p Plenty for president and

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:31

they're all different variations of, of the recipe.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:34

But p Plenty, the younger is a triple IPA at 10 and a quarter percent alcohol.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:39

McFleshman's: Yes.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:39

And you got, uh, my address right when you're

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:42

Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:43

Right.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:44

McFleshman's: I know we talked a little bit by email about getting, uh, it it here at a location and Well, it would be beer for beer though.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:50

He's not here.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:50

What's that?

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:51

It would be beer for beer.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:52

We'd send him some.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:52

Oh yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:53

This is in kind.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:53

Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:54

There we go.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:55

This is a way.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:55

old fashioned brewer trade,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:58

McFleshman's: Perfect.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:10:59

uh,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:00

McFleshman's: Uh, Allison, do you wanna ask some questions?

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:01

'cause I'm gonna go down some rabbit holes.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:02

Well, no, I was just gonna say, um, one of the fun things, so I'm you're, you're absolutely right.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:06

Earlier we were talking about I am the backbone of the brewery.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:09

The, the spousal support as well as just I don't know.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:12

Bobby comes to me with ideas.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:13

He started bringing graduate school and he had, oh goodness.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:17

So try this beer.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:18

Try that beer.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:19

Um, Pliny was one that we were always so inspired by.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:22

I do not like IPAs.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:24

I like my English shales.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:25

I'm drinking a stout right now.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:26

However, we'd go to the todo in San Francisco and that was the only place.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:32

And Bobby, I'm stealing your story, but go for it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:34

I'm the wife so I can tell it better too.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:36

I do.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:37

But anyway, but there's something about that beer that just struck me and inspired Bobby.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:41

He spent a lot of time in San Francisco, uh, at academic conferences and such.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:45

And so as an homage to not only Pliny, but also to the todo, our flagship beer our A A PA, uh, is the 5 4 7, which is the, at 5 4 7 8

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:56

Street.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:56

the address.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:57

Yep.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:11:57

McFleshman's: I looked over our shoulders, or she did, and, and we saw the door, you know, the half

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:02

Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:02

Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:02

It's the barn.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:03

It's the barn door that is so famous at the to

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:06

McFleshman's: It's so wonderful.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:07

Anyway, we took a picture of that R 5 4 7.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:10

And actually, uh, she's a bit big.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:12

Uh, she's 8.9% I think.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:14

And so some folks are like, well, if you can make a smaller version.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:16

And so Little Tornado is her little sister.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:19

So you have two beers named after the Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:21

That's cool.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:22

That's cool.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:22

Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:22

We're actually gonna be there.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:23

Uh, is it this, I think this coming weekend, because it's San Francisco Beer Week or maybe two weekends

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:29

from now.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:30

And we, they do a big Russian River, uh, event every year for during beer week.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:35

McFleshman's: Well, I just, it's, it, it's been such an, it's been so wonderful to watch Bobby when we can get a hold of your beers to watch him drink them.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:43

And then he, there's this creativity abounds and it's just, it's inspiration, but it's also questioning.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:49

And so he is like, oh, I wonder how that happened, or I wonder how that happened.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:51

And anyway, it's just, it's been really fun to watch,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:54

Well, that's really, that's really sweet of you guys.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:56

Thank you.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:12:56

Yeah, we, Natalie and I would've never thought that we would, a, been in the industry this long.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:02

B, we were able to buy out all of our investors.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:05

C

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:06

McFleshman's: on.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:06

Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:07

Oh my gosh.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:07

Yeah, thanks actually.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:08

And c like make a living.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:10

I just think back to the blind pig days where literally she was supporting both of us.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:16

My parents still had the winery and every Sunday night my mom would cater at the winery and she would have all the leftover food.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:24

And, and literally every Sunday night we would go have.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:27

Like family dinner with my folks and we would load up a bunch of Ziploc bags with all the leftover food and that, that, and Natalie was going, she was working during the day, going to school at night to finish school or go going to school.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:39

And that's how we lived for that whole blind pig period.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:43

McFleshman's: Oh my God.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:44

It is just describing us right now.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:46

yeah, there is, I I saw that you guys, um, had Ken Grossman on

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:50

recently, um, who's a, who's a dear friend of ours.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:13:54

And there's this one really cool moment before they, years before they built Mills River, North Carolina.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:00

Brian, Ken's son still lived in Chico and he's a, a, a really good friend of ours as well.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:05

And we were up visiting him and we went over to his folks' house, which is just across the canyon.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:10

And it was, I think it was Labor Day weekend.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:12

And, and we went down to the swimming hole that's behind Ken and Katie's house.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:17

And, um, I was just hanging out talking with Katie and Brian and off to the side I could see Natalie and Ken chitchatting and, and.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:25

We had just hit this point where we, Natalie didn't have to check the bank balance every day.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:31

And, and I'm sure you remember those, those, those days, Alison.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:35

And anyways,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:37

McFleshman's: actually.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:37

Today, yes.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:38

and, and like Ken just like, was like, oh, I remember that ex, you know, and that for him, that had been decades before, but certainly had been through it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:47

those little things keep you grounded and, and

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:50

humbled.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:50

McFleshman's: to say the least, that's inspirational.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:52

We're actually, it's inspirational.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:53

We are also, we are completely family owned, so Bobby's parents are significant investors.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:14:57

My family's a significant investor, and so it's just the two of us really, and our families.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:00

And so we don't have the same struggle as the, the, I mean, we have different struggles in that.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:04

Um, so we're not buying out investors, but it's, it's been a labor of

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:07

yeah, absolutely.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:08

No, it's, uh, there's something about husband and wife teams.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:12

Uh, you know, one of the, one of the great ones in, in, Wisconsin is Dan and Deb of

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:17

course.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:18

And, uh, whenever Dan was just out here month or so back visiting some family, and we were conversing about that, the, the spousal team.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:27

So

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:27

anyways, I love It

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:29

McFleshman's: we'll have everybody on the show that Dan knows, so we'll have to be on here.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:34

Everybody, like the farthest reaches have been on this show's True, but not the guy down the road.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:39

Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:40

Um, so I, so we brought Decker on the show.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:43

Uh, he has a fun story about how you're, you're as metal.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:47

Well, I'll let him tell you this whole story.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:48

Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:48

We couldn't not have him share this story with you, so here we go.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:51

He, he told us last time he was on here, I said, you gotta come on to tell this to Vinny.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:54

Yeah, Vinny.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:55

So, I always, I, I view beer as like an adventure.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:15:58

You know, you get, have an adventure in a glass, you can travel the world and stuff, but, uh, you can only get so far by just drinking out of a glass.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:05

Sometimes you have to get to the place.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:07

And, uh, I work in the radio.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:08

I worked for our, our local Hard Rock radio stations out here.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:12

And, uh, a couple of years ago I went to the Aftershock Festival over in Sacramento.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:17

And, uh, one of my best friends lives in Chico.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:21

And, uh, he was like, Hey man, if you're gonna be in town, you should come to Russian River.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:25

And I was like, yeah, I would love to.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:27

Absolutely.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:28

I'm only available on Sunday.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:29

And he's like, yeah, we can do that.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:31

So, I'm at this festival all, all year or all weekend and on Sunday morning I get a call on my phone and I'm already planning on going to Russian River.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:41

Like, we're going to the home base right now.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:43

I'm gonna have a Pliny at the tap.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:45

It's gonna be amazing.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:45

I get a call and uh, this guy's like, Hey, uh, I got slash on the phone and he wants to do an interview with you, uh, in his bus at two o'clock this afternoon.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:56

Are you, are you able to make that happen?

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:16:59

And I took one breath and I was like, Nope, I can't,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:05

I got, I gotta get to, uh, I gotta get to Russian River.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:08

And they were like, what?

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:10

And I was like, yeah, sorry.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:11

I gotta drink a of the elder at, uh, at Russian

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:14

Oh, that's rad.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:15

Okay.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:15

We're adding that to the book even

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:17

though we

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:17

don't have a book.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:18

That's a good story.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:20

McFleshman's: down that interview and then, uh, yeah, Queens of the Stone Age reached out to, and they're like, we're only doing like three or four of these you wanna hop on?

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:27

And I was like, nah man, I gotta get to Rush.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:29

So, so you're owed an in person interview next time, rush.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:33

Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:34

So, yeah, I gotta get out.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:35

I, I'm thinking about coming to Aftershock again this year,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:38

that's cool.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:39

Well, please, please let me know.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:41

And, uh, I thought, I thought one of the guys from Queens of the Stone Age lived in the, in San Francisco, but I, and would go into the, to auto, 'cause one of the roadies, uh, for Queens of the Stone Age would bartended there for a while.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:17:55

And, um, and then I know, and I'm not sure if he's still there, but the lead singer of, uh, remember Faith No More?

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:18:01

McFleshman's: Yes, I

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:18:02

He's, he, he lives around the corner from the todo.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:18:05

I've seen him there many a times and,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:18:06

uh, but uh, that's a great story about slash

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:18:10

McFleshman's: Hence the reason we were like, we would like the opportunity.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:18:12

Would you like to tell Vinny of this in person?

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:18:14

Yeah,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:18:15

That's incredible.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:18:16

McFleshman's: yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:18:17

Now I'll have my friend waiting in line in, uh, March when you have that in-person distribution.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:18:21

So I will, uh, be getting the younger, but, uh, yeah, dude, that, and what an incredible experience to have because like, I live in Wisconsin, I lived in Minnesota.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:18:30

That's about as far away from home that I've been.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:18:32

But Pliny has been a beer that is like world renowned and everyone talks about like, oh, it's the, you know, it was the first double IPA and it's inspired so much.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:18:46

But what inspired you to, like, what beer was it that you tried and you're like, I think I could take something like that to the next level to make something that ended up being Pliny the elder.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:18:58

you know, when I was home brewing.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:19:02

And, and I, I tell this story, I've told this story often, but you know, the, the two hoppy beers that were available that I drank, that were commercially available were Liberty Ale from Anchor Brewing

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:19:14

McFleshman's: Oh, rest in peace.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:19:15

and, and Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:19:18

but neither of those are IPAs per se, you know?

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:19:21

And, um, and I, and I just was like, I'm gonna make a beer that I like.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:19:28

And, uh, that was even hop, that was IPA focused.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:19:31

And, uh, there was a beer from a little brewery in Sacramento.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:19:36

Uh, the brewery was called Rubicon.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:19:37

And they made a really exceptional IPA at the time that along with, swamis from Pizza Port Brewing in, uh, Solana Beach, those would've been the two closest, like.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:19:49

American IPAs.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:19:50

There was no such thing as a West coast IPA.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:19:52

So, you know, it was built on Cascade hops, Chinook hops, and honestly, uh, Centennial, when I centennial only had come out as an experimental in the late eighties.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:20:08

I remember walking into a home brew shop in El Cajon, which is a east eastern town of San Diego County Beer and wine craft, this old couple alone, and Audrey owned it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:20:18

And they had, you know, it's all the ingredients and there was two experimental hops, um, and CFJ, um, 90 was the hop.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:20:29

That, and C FJ four CFJ four never made it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:20:31

CFJ 90 ended up becoming centennial, so that eventually became a part of the recipe.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:20:37

But CTZ, so Columbus, Toma, Tomahawk, Zeus, that didn't even exist until a few year or year into blind pig.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:20:44

So you have to like think back and put yourself in that.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:20:47

Era and obviously even more so if you're, you know, Ken Grossman, then there's even less hops available when he started.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:20:54

But you know, nowadays when you have all these choices, you know, Simco, Amarillo, Citra, mosaic, Sonos, all these New Zealand hops that we talked about few, few minutes ago, you know, all those things just make it so much easier.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:21:07

And back then, tho that just didn't exist.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:21:10

So, although some people would think that a beer like Sierra Nevada Pale Ale or Liberty Ale's, a little pedestrian now compared to what.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:21:19

You know, we get now,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:21:21

McFleshman's: Hmm.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:21:21

you know, time and place and those, those beers are really important and they were foundational.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:21:25

And you know, without those beers I would've never been inspired to make my own IPA.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:21:30

And you know, I'm Natalie and I are always humbled and flattered when you know.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:21:34

Folks mentioned that Russian River inspired them to make a home brewer, a home brewer, whatever, or be a, become a professional brewer.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:21:42

But you know, that that would've never happened without, without those early

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:21:46

breweries that we're grateful for.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:21:48

So to long way of saying that, there wasn't really anything specifically that inspired like that, the recipe for making an IPA.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:21:55

But those beers were certainly influential.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:21:58

And the one, the one thing for sure though is that, you know, nowadays, at least, I'm not sure there in the Midwest, but you know, here, coastal nobody's putting crystal malt in their IPA anymore here.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:22:09

If you're a small to mid-size regional brewery like we are, some of the larger craft breweries are, but you know, you're pretty much talking two row, maybe a little bit of wheat and then potentially sugar.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:22:21

So the IPAs are, you know what, now we call a West coast IPA is super light in color, lets the hops.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:22:29

Just like rip through and that's all you taste.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:22:31

And the malt is just there to be, you know, marginally foundational to keep it somewhat balanced.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:22:38

But back then there were a lot of breweries that did make, IPA had probably 10%, 15% crystal maltin.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:22:44

That was something that I always kept really low, was maybe two or 3% crystal malt.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:22:48

And so the beers were always just a little more hoppy than everyone else's.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:22:54

McFleshman's: Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:22:55

And you were talking about all these hops that you've championed over the years.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:22:59

I, I've heard him said more than once that, that you're, the reason we even have simco, uh, that's even been planted and preserved over the decades, is that, what do you have to say about this?

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:23:10

Yeah, SIM Simco is, uh, Simco and I have a very special relationship.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:23:16

Just last year was, its 25th, uh, birthday, and in fact there's a, a podcast on it, on craft beer and brewing that, that Jamie interviewed me for.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:23:26

We, we did it out in the hop field and we did the interview with Jason Peralt, who's the breeder of Simco.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:23:33

And it was a really special interview to, to talk through it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:23:37

But yeah, I would get, uh, through Yakima chief, uh, my sales guy.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:23:42

His name was Gerard Lemons, and he was this great Englishman who knew just so much about hops.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:23:48

He taught me so much about what I know about hops, and he would bring me these experimental hops, and this one came along YCR zero 14, and I brewed with it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:23:57

And the only thing that we agreed upon that I had to do was bottle some up.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:24:04

And send it to him.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:24:05

And then he would deliver it back to the farm where they were, you know, breeding the hops and growing.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:24:11

And it turned out that that was Jason Peralt that was ending up with these hops along with maybe a couple other people.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:24:17

And, um, and that, that became Simco and, um, it was just.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:24:23

Groundbreaking.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:24:24

And when you think about Simco, it was the first of these new kind of privately owned bread designer hops, and there just wasn't anything like it at the time.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:24:35

Amarillo had come out around that same time, but it, it wasn't bred through a breeding program.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:24:40

Amarillo just was, was growing in a ditch at the side at Virgil Gamache Farms where, and, and Simco was supposed to be a bittering hop, but it, in the end, it wasn't high enough in alpha acid for what they were looking for at the time.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:24:54

But Jason recognized it had this absolutely incredible.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:24:57

Aromatic value to it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:24:59

Pine, grapefruit, little tropical.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:02

If you let it hang longer, it can be a lot more, uh, dank.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:05

And, and cannabis like.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:07

And it was also for me, the first hop and for Natalie as well, that we learned about the picking window of hops.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:12

Every hop has a picking window and simco, we know the best.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:16

And so call your average hop has about an eight to 10 day picking window.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:20

Some, a little bit more, some a little bit less.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:22

But if you pick sim and for Simco, it's September one through September 10, maybe a day or two each way.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:29

And if you select early Simco, it's super grapefruit driven.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:32

If you select mid picking window simco, it's more pine driven.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:37

If you pick, select late, it's more dank and, and more pungent and more cannabis like.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:43

And we tend to select like September 4th through the sixth every year.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:48

And so that gives us a little grapefruit, but more pine.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:50

And that's really the signature of, of Pine of the Elder.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:53

So

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:53

McFleshman's: Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:53

And when we're picking lots,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:54

with our, our, our simco.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:58

So

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:58

McFleshman's: picking lots.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:25:59

Uh, we don't have access.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:00

We're not of the scale to, to contract and have all the, but, but we do talk to other brewers and we've heard the same thing and we've been able to see to express simco in so many different ways depending on when it was picked.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:12

I agree with you.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:12

Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:13

It, it's really, it's really cool.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:14

And, and I think every hop has that to a degree.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:18

Some more, some less.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:19

But it, it's, I, I think I know Simco the best because we.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:27

You know, buy so much of it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:28

And we spend so much time with it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:31

And, uh, it's, it's such a, it's such an amazing hop and it's such a great all purpose multipurpose.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:38

IPA hop I was just looking up.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:41

So we buy 30, 40, 50, we buy about 60,000 pounds of Simco a year, and some of that's converted into concentrated cryo, you

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:54

know, but Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:56

we buy an awful lot of Simco.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:58

McFleshman's: So small scale.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:59

Okay.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:26:59

How many.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:27:00

and the unique, you know, the best part of the Simco story for me is the relationships that it forged for Natalie and I with the families.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:27:10

The, there's three families that.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:27:12

Own Simco still.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:27:14

Um, the Carpenters, the Peralz and the Smiths, the Smiths have, uh, two farms, Loftus and Tributary, and they're some of our best friends and just connecting with them we'll get a keg of plenty of the younger delivered to um, bale Breaker, which is Loftus Brewery as well.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:27:32

And they'll invite all the hop growers that have hops and plenty of the younger and then others will show up.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:27:38

And it's this great, it's this great celebration of hops in, in Yakima.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:27:42

And those, those relationships are really special.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:27:45

McFleshman's: Absolutely no doubt.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:27:48

Uh, fast forwarding to now, in the last five years, I think you've, uh, produced a pilsner, right?

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:27:53

STS

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:27:55

yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:27:55

We've, we started brewing STS in 2014.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:27:59

Um, but it was just a little pet project of mine at the Santa Rosa brewery, which I assume is where Decker went.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:28:06

And, um,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:28:07

Yeah.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:28:08

And, and then when we opened our big, uh, modern, uh, production brewery in Windsor, which is just 10, 15 miles north of

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:28:15

Santa Rosa,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:28:16

McFleshman's: to that

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:28:16

too.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:28:17

Any

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:28:17

we put in open top fermenters there to have this, like, strong focus on lager.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:28:22

So essentially, when we opened Windsor seven, a little over seven years now, seven and a half years now, we didn't, you know, those sales for STS didn't even, you know.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:28:32

I don't know, it was like 0.0025% or something stupid like that.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:28:36

You couldn't even measure it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:28:37

But our, our sales team really got behind it, our bartender servers.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:28:40

And, you know, I've always been a, uh, as I jokingly would say, a closet Pilsner fan, but we wanted to be very hop forward.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:28:46

So we really did follow more of like an Italian style pilsner.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:28:50

So, um, still very pilsner esque, it's definitely more hop forward and it's using a, a unique hop, uh, from France called Aramis.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:29:00

And Aramis was bred from St. Ssel spat and was originally bred f Anheuser Busch.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:29:06

But, uh, after, during the buyout when InBev bought Anheuser-Busch, they decided not to, um, to use it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:29:16

And it was a, a great replacement hops for some hops.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:29:19

It.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:29:20

Anheuser-Busch had in Budweiser, and it's was more stable.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:29:23

It grew better in France, and there wasn't the inconsistency that they had with some of their other hops, but they still decided against it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:29:31

And Val Peacock, who was the hop guy for Anheuser-Busch, uh, took early retirement when the buyout happened, and his French hop grower friend said, well, Val, you.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:29:43

You helped us breed it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:29:44

You told us to plant it now help us sell it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:29:46

And uh, through the Hop Quality Group, which is a nonprofit that we're a part of, he just started talking to some of the members and, and he and others that he knew and, and, uh, in the craft beer industry started using it.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:29:57

And it's a really beautiful lagger hop that's got a little more grassiness and then, then say Strel sp.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:30:04

And, it's really clean, it's crisp, super consistent.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:30:08

And so the recipe is about 90%, um, of Aramis and then 10% middle fruit.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:30:15

But it's Oregon grown middle fruit, so it's middle fruit grown in, in Oregon instead of Germany.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:30:20

We actually, actually like it better.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:30:22

And then the malt is a hundred percent, uh, dingmans pilsner malt.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:30:25

So where you hear most US brewers, if they're using, uh, malt from Europe, they're usually using Wireman, uh, Dingmans as a Belgian company that I've been working with for.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:30:37

Several decades, and I absolutely love them and great friends with Carl Dingmans.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:30:42

And so again, it goes back to those relationships as much as anything else

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:30:46

McFleshman's: that's why I segued into, to the Pilsner because another example, how of a hop that you've chosen that now has sort of led the industry and, and, and sort of motivated the farmers to grow what they grow now.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:30:58

I think that's, that's fascinating.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:00

yeah, it's, um, and it's just a little bit different than what everyone else uses.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:04

Obviously there's other people using Aramis, which is great.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:06

We need other people to use the same hops we use, otherwise, they, they, they don't exist anymore.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:12

so it's super critical.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:13

You know, we also make a helles I, I love our helles.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:17

But I am more of an STS fan because it's more hop forward.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:21

It's, it's 40 bu it's, we dry hop it just a little bit.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:25

You can't dry hop a, a pilsner too much.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:27

But it works for the style for a, uh, a Italian style pilsner.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:32

We don't call it an Italian style pilsner.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:35

'Cause the average consumer has no idea what that means.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:38

So on the label it's just a Keller style pilsner.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:41

There's a little sediment in the bottom of the, the can.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:44

And if you roll it and pour it, it'll, you know, you'll, you'll have a little bit of yeast, uh, quality into the beer.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:49

So,

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:52

McFleshman's: so

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:52

we can't, we can't go too far before we talk about your sour beer program that you, you're a wine guy originally, and this has

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:31:58

to have something to do with how this came to be.

Vinnie Cilurzo: 00:32:02

Yeah, the, the, uh, you know, that, that trip I mentioned the Belgium in 1999.

David Kalsow: 00:32:08

And that's gonna wrap up this episode of Respecting the Beer.

David Kalsow: 00:32:11

Be sure to come back next week as we continue our conversation with Vinnie, getting into their sour program, expansion woes, and more

David Kalsow: 00:32:18

The show is produced by me, David Kalsow, with music by Sarah Lynn Huss.

David Kalsow: 00:32:22

Be sure to join our Facebook page to stay connected between episodes, and support the show over on Patreon, you can get exclusive access to beer releases and a special one-hour-long video tour of McFleshman's

David Kalsow: 00:32:33

So until next time, please remember to respect the beer