Episode 52
Charlie Bamforth Soliloquies About Beer Foam
Charlie Bamforth of Sierra Nevada Brewing and former professor at UC Davis talks to us about the importance of beer foam and who would be on his Mount Rushmore of Beer.
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TIMELINE
00:00 Welcoming Back Charlie Bamforth
01:03 The History of Beer and Brewing
07:35 The Importance of Foam in Beer
23:07 The Evolution of American Beer
24:43 Mount Rushmore of Craft Brewing
26:55 Conclusion and Farewell
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CREDITS
Hosts:
Music by Sarah Lynn Huss
Recorded & Produced by David Kalsow
Brought to you by McFleshman's Brewing Co
Transcript
I hear a glass.
Speaker:Or was that not?
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I'm back.
Speaker:Okay, there we go.
Speaker:Charlie, I've had a, question that I've wanted to ask you for years.
Speaker:You have a famous quote and this quote intersects with my world quite a bit.
Speaker:I teach high school history.
Speaker:I also teach a history class at McFleshman's, by the way, shameless plug.
Speaker:Oh, like next week, right?
Speaker:Next Wednesday.
Speaker:Next Monday night.
Speaker:beer and world history.
Speaker:And I, I have interpreted this quote of yours for myself on more occasions than I can count, but I'm wondering if you could do it for me.
Speaker:What do you, what do you say?
Speaker:depends what it is, but yeah, I'll have
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:All right, here we go.
Speaker:Beer is the basis of modern static civilization.
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, no question.
Speaker:Well, I
Speaker:on the Mount Rushmore quotes right there.
Speaker:well, I mean, you catch your mind by 8, 000 years.
Speaker:And if you're in sort of the, what we refer to as the fertile crescent.
Speaker:these days, so places like Iraq and, and so on.
Speaker:I mean, people had a nomadic existence and they used to sort of be going from place to place.
Speaker:So, so, you know, taking goats with them and finding grass for the goats to eat and so on.
Speaker:And they used to carry barley with them, raw barley, barley grain.
Speaker:And that's what they would eat, you know, and so they were biting into this grain and it was hard and tough and astringent and didn't, you know, made them cough and wasn't very nutritious and stuff.
Speaker:Then they got it wet and it started to sprout and germinate.
Speaker:So now it started tasting like bean sprouts.
Speaker:I don't think they knew what bean sprouts tasted like, but it tasted damn slight better than the The raw barley and somehow they made this into a bread and now it tastes really good.
Speaker:It tastes like, you know, malted milk bowls, the sorts of things that priests sell, you know, delicious.
Speaker:And that's a cue.
Speaker:If you talk to the good friends up the road, they're telling to send me some more malted milk bowls.
Speaker:But anyway,
Speaker:You have another fan here.
Speaker:and then, and then,
Speaker:That'll be in the care package when we send the
Speaker:thank you very
Speaker:your way.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:And then they, they sort of stored this bread in jars and it got wet.
Speaker:And of course there were yeast around the place and they converted the sugars into alcohol.
Speaker:So they put the finger into the, you know, this and tasted the liquid and they said, Oh, that tastes good.
Speaker:And they drank it and they fell over and they thought, well, hell this is, this is good.
Speaker:And so they stopped all this nonsense of driving around.
Speaker:They, they moving around, they stayed put, they grew the grain.
Speaker:They, they, did the primitive malting and brewing and made the liquid.
Speaker:So they put all the tents in a circle and made a village and that became a town and a city like, you know, Madison.
Speaker:and so the whole basis of civilization is because of this discovery of, of beer.
Speaker:so the static civilization is that this nomadic existence.
Speaker:Now, of course, bread comes into that as well.
Speaker:crops, but beer was at the heart of it.
Speaker:People say to me, sometimes they say, you know, which came first beer or bread?
Speaker:I said, honey and meat, because you know, with, with, with the honey being spontaneously fermented and so, so.
Speaker:Yeah, but it's lost in the realms of, you know, mists of time.
Speaker:You know, years ago when I, when I used to have all sorts of guests come to talk to my class at UC Davis, Ken would come.
Speaker:I used to teach this big class, Introduction to Beer and Brewing.
Speaker:It became the most popular class on campus.
Speaker:It pushed the class on sex into second place and the class, the class on nutrition into third place.
Speaker:So if you want to know what UC Davis are interested in, it was beer, sex, and food in that order, which.
Speaker:Which entirely is logical.
Speaker:Anyway, so Ken used to come three times a year to talk to that class and people like Dan Gordon from Gordon Beers, he used to come as well and we used to get Fritz Maytag and Fritz, told, you know, would tell the story of how they, you know, they made the the beer according to the ancient recipe of
Speaker:He made one, didn't
Speaker:He did and how they did it and and how they made this beer according to the Hinton Ninkasi and he said you know in those days there was no you know we had to put hops in because that's the rule these days so when it came to that point I asked everybody to turn the other way and I put a hop cone in there you know and then they had a dinner and they all sat around drinking out of the straws just like they would have done you know eight thousand years ago.
Speaker:several thousand years ago.
Speaker:And I said, Fritz, how did it taste?
Speaker:He said, you know, Charlie, it wasn't very good, but we had a hell of a lot of fun doing it.
Speaker:We've, we've talked about history many times on this podcast.
Speaker:And so I'm going to pose the question to you because we've asked it.
Speaker:If you were to have a beer from say 200, 500, 5, 000 years ago.
Speaker:Do you think it would be any good?
Speaker:Would you enjoy it compared to a modern beer?
Speaker:Well, I probably, you know, it's that I don't think that's a valid question with all due respect, because you wouldn't make a comparison.
Speaker:So what was good five years and years ago will probably not be deemed good now.
Speaker:So, you know, it's, You know, it would be compared to everything else.
Speaker:So would it be better and certainly would it be safer than drinking the water?
Speaker:It most certainly would and so yeah, i'd probably acquire a taste for it.
Speaker:So I mean I find it impossible people say well How does the beer now compared to how it was when you first started drinking beer?
Speaker:I can't make that side by side comparison.
Speaker:It probably is more consistent now, even than it was than it was before 50 years ago.
Speaker:Let me do a calculation now.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:55 years ago.
Speaker:But, you know, it, it, you know, it's not easy to make those comparisons.
Speaker:You know, I, I, I have a slide on one of my presentations somewhere.
Speaker:I use slides very often.
Speaker:But, you know, there is one which basically gives a list of what was present in a brewery.
Speaker:This is about 500 years ago, and you can instantly recognize from this inventory that, hey, that's a brewery.
Speaker:So the basic process hasn't changed, really, for hundreds and hundreds of years.
Speaker:But what has changed is we understand how to do it, and how to do it much more consistently.
Speaker:So I think certainly from the, when hops were first introduced and used in beer, then I, I, I'm sure that there was a, a recognition.
Speaker:You, if you went back, you'd say, yeah, if you tasted something, I'd say, what are you drinking?
Speaker:I think you probably would say, well, I'm drinking beer.
Speaker:But, it probably wouldn't have been quite so refined as it is these days.
Speaker:Oh
Speaker:of the beta glucans and, and the DMS.
Speaker:And if we don't watch it, we're going to, we're going to drift into that category, which you know, a couple of things about What do we want to talk about next?
Speaker:We have Charlie for another, like, 20 minutes.
Speaker:How
Speaker:about I, you've earned this nickname, the Pope of Foam.
Speaker:The average person, if they crack open a bottle of beer, there is little to no foam.
Speaker:It's not like you're going to get if you're getting it maybe out of a tap.
Speaker:Bobby recently installed a Luker faucet.
Speaker:And they were so excited, because of what they could do with foam.
Speaker:What is the importance of foam in beer?
Speaker:Because I think mostly the average person probably doesn't care or they don't think about it.
Speaker:Gary just opened the way for the next 25 plus minutes.
Speaker:We're going to be here till midnight.
Speaker:I love this.
Speaker:I'll keep.
Speaker:I'll keep this short.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:when I, when I first came to Davis, I actually, while they were upgrading my lab, I couldn't use the laboratory.
Speaker:I actually got one type of beer and some glasses.
Speaker:And I went off to the photographic studio with a photographer, his name was Sam Wu.
Speaker:And we just took this beer, and I poured it in loads of different ways.
Speaker:I poured it with a lot of foam, with no foam.
Speaker:moderate amounts of foam.
Speaker:And then we drained them, not by drinking, but by siphoning off the liquid.
Speaker:And so I got all sorts of different You know, halfway down the glass and there's still some foam on some and no foam on others.
Speaker:And there are different amounts of lacing and all of these things.
Speaker:I took all these photographs and we showed them to people and said which of these is the best, you know.
Speaker:They asked some questions and even those people who confessed to the crime, it is a crime, of drinking the beer straight out of the container.
Speaker:But even those people said, hey, the best ones are the ones with the foam.
Speaker:Because that's what, that's the, the signature of what beer is.
Speaker:It's, it's the foam on it, and people are expecting to see a good foam.
Speaker:And if it's not there, they say, oh, there's something wrong with that.
Speaker:You know, they might, they might say, well, it's just, it's, the fizz is all wrong.
Speaker:Or it's not as fresh or, you know, there are all sorts of things they're going to say, but they, you know, people drink with their eyes and, and they're, they're, they notice the foam, they expect the foam to be there.
Speaker:And if it's not there, they, they're starting to ask questions.
Speaker:And that, as I say, is even those people who normally don't even put it in a class.
Speaker:And I remember from my days at Bass, you know, if we, We did a trial, we might do a trial looking for a subtle difference in flavor.
Speaker:Maybe two beers and we served them.
Speaker:The one we served, if we made the mistake of giving one with a better head than the other, that was always the one that was preferred.
Speaker:Always!
Speaker:They preferred the one with, with the head on it.
Speaker:so, you know, people, they're, they, you know, to a greater or lesser extent, they expect to see a full wonder beer.
Speaker:But, you know, years ago, I found it.
Speaker:Get this, the European Brewery Convention Foam Group.
Speaker:So all these, all these boffins, all these boffins, were working on foam.
Speaker:Anyway, one of the members was from Germany, and he came to me and he said, Why you?
Speaker:I said, What do you mean, why me?
Speaker:Well, why have you started this group?
Speaker:I said, Well, why not?
Speaker:He said, You're English.
Speaker:I said, yeah.
Speaker:He said, you have no foam on the beer.
Speaker:I said, and you've been to London.
Speaker:So you've never properly been to England, have you?
Speaker:If you go to the north of England, you've got to have, you know, a couple of inches of foam.
Speaker:And you've got to have a pint of liquid, so that's why the glasses are bigger than, bigger size.
Speaker:You have a line on it, tells you you've got a pint of liquid, and you've got the foam on top.
Speaker:You know, people have, you know, People have asked questions in parliament about this.
Speaker:You know, I mean, thi this is, this is very, very important stuff.
Speaker:So thank you for asking the question.
Speaker:so
Speaker:, but it's a psychological thing.
Speaker:It it is totally a psychological thing.
Speaker:from showing you my glass with the lacing on it.
Speaker:It's from afar at this point, but I, I, right there, you have it.
Speaker:And I have been known to send Charlie a picture.
Speaker:I don't know, every year or so of a, of a, of a glass with lacing.
Speaker:And, and I think of you in, at the end of that glass, I think of how that foam stacked up and left that.
Speaker:So, I mean, this, this country.
Speaker:I would say probably has got us, in many places, the worst foam performance of anywhere on the planet, you
Speaker:Whoa.
Speaker:with Belgium being number one, would you put
Speaker:Belgium, the Czech Republic, Germany, the north of England, all of the, well, anywhere in England these days.
Speaker:You know, foam is, it's, and it's all about cleaning the glasses properly.
Speaker:I'm pouring it properly.
Speaker:But in this country, so many glasses are just not washed.
Speaker:right,
Speaker:And so you've got, you've got, they're either washed alongside the, the food plates or something like that, or they're detergents not being rinsed away afterwards.
Speaker:And, you know, I, as you said earlier Bobby, I was a QA manager at Bass for, for a while.
Speaker:And, you know, when people complained about the foam, it was never the beer.
Speaker:We, we, it was always the way they were pouring it out or the dispense set up or the glasses weren't washed properly and so on nearly all the time.
Speaker:99 percent of the time I would say it's that.
Speaker:So the secret for, for, for, for good quality foam first and foremost is It's how is it poured out and what is it poured into.
Speaker:And, and so many places in this country fail that.
Speaker:You can always tell, you've got those ugly bubbles on the side of the glass.
Speaker:When you first pour, pour it out, you've got those bubbles.
Speaker:And that's just, those are greasy spots.
Speaker:I remember being in Ireland many times, and I've had, this wasn't just at the Guinness Brewery, but the bartender would go out of their way to show you how to properly pour a Guinness, because they're very anal retentive about how people present the product.
Speaker:that's right.
Speaker:And you've got to be patient as well.
Speaker:You know, it's it's not a quick thing, you know For Guinness, you're way too early, you know, there's plenty of time, you know Ten minutes later you get your pint and it's wonderful.
Speaker:It's absolutely wonderful
Speaker:It's a very strong brand, Guinness.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:I, I often tell this story, it's, it's, and my friends at Guinness I think are tired of me hearing this story, but a woman emailed me and she said, is it true, the difference between Guinness brewed in Dublin and Guinness brewed elsewhere in the world is they marinate a dead cow in the beer in Ireland.
Speaker:So I emailed back and I said, Madam, I've been part of the brewing industry since 1978 and I've never heard anything quite so stupid.
Speaker:Everyone knows it's a sheep.
Speaker:And she emailed me back and said, Thank you for the inside information.
Speaker:I mean, isn't that terrifying?
Speaker:Isn't that terrifying?
Speaker:We had an episode on the Reins Heizkabot and there was a court case where there was an actual dissolved cat in a vat of beer that went to trial in Germany.
Speaker:It was deemed not a violation of the Reins Heizkabot as well.
Speaker:In all of your free time, you should listen to that one.
Speaker:That one derailed pretty quickly.
Speaker:Dan Gordon tells you, you know, he tells the, the, the real history behind the Reinhardt's book, 1516.
Speaker:Because Dan, Dan was a student at, Weinstein.
Speaker:He didn't, he didn't come to UC Davis.
Speaker:I mean, he lived down the road.
Speaker:But he went to, to Munich.
Speaker:And, of course, learned all things German there.
Speaker:Including, at the time, of course, while he was there, he invented the garlic fry, but that's, that's another story.
Speaker:But, you know, they, they introduced the Reinheitsgebot to stop people using dodgy materials.
Speaker:You know, people were putting cow bile in, in, in, in the drink, and all sorts of things.
Speaker:So they said, enough of this, you, you know, you, you use malt hops and water, because they didn't know what yeast was at the time, so that wasn't on the list of ingredients.
Speaker:To stop people using dodgy materials, or indeed to use other materials they wanted to conserve for other purposes.
Speaker:So it's become a sort of a holier than thou purity, you know, superiority complex.
Speaker:But as I said, you know, what seems like a long time ago, now I said, you know, I'm perfectly okay with the rice and the corn, you know.
Speaker:But, you know, there's a lot to be said for malt.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:I'm getting prodded in the side.
Speaker:If I don't ask this question before we, we finished this interview, I I'll be, Exiled.
Speaker:Exiled from his own brewery.
Speaker:So, I listened to a different podcast, and it's called, It's Drink Beer and Think Beer.
Speaker:And when he concludes his interview, He asks the interviewee if they could have, So, it's called the Green Door Question.
Speaker:And it's in reference to a show called the other place.
Speaker:And I, I'm not familiar with it, but, but I'm now giving you a second hand interpretation at the end of the episode, one character gets to pass through a door, they get to be anywhere, anytime, any place.
Speaker:But he asked it in the context of beer, if you could be anywhere, anytime, any place when it comes to beer, where is that place?
Speaker:That's a great question.
Speaker:That is a great question.
Speaker:I,
Speaker:And with anyone, right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:yeah, I'd rather have, I'd be rather keen to have been, been there when Ken Grossman started his original brewery.
Speaker:I'd be rather keen to have, to have been a fly on the wall, to see, exactly how things were.
Speaker:I've heard the stories.
Speaker:He's told me the many times.
Speaker:But I, I'd love to, love to have been there.
Speaker:I'd also like to have been, you know, perhaps involved in, in someone like the Bass Brewing Company back in the day when the very first sort of big name scientists were, were applying their trade there.
Speaker:There was a guy, for example, called Cornelius O'Sullivan.
Speaker:And this was in the, the late 19th century.
Speaker:And at the time he was being paid 5, 000 pounds a year if you, if you, he was being paid big mega bucks, you know and I'd love to have been around to see just.
Speaker:how things were being done in those days and to the previous question to see just how good the beer was, at that time.
Speaker:So those would be a couple of, I wouldn't want to transport myself back to ancient Sumeria with, you know, 8, 000 years or so.
Speaker:But those would be a couple of, of, places I would very much
Speaker:It's hard to argue with that.
Speaker:You kind of, you, you segued perfectly.
Speaker:Do you have a connection to a Mr. Ken Grossman?
Speaker:I,
Speaker:Cause that would be,
Speaker:I do know the guy.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:So I reach out to Dan Carey here once in a while in Wisconsin, it's at, at New Glarus and he has gone into full on grandfather mode.
Speaker:So he spends his time, With his grandkids.
Speaker:It's hard to get him out to do a show or, or to, to be present at a, a beer fest, but I wonder what Ken Grossman's time looks like these days.
Speaker:Very respectful for how demanded it may be.
Speaker:Well, I mean, I'll be happy to ask him on your behalf.
Speaker:I mean, Ken, Ken's still very much involved very much involved, and, is, is, continues to be, a major, force in the company.
Speaker:Brian is, is increasingly involved as well.
Speaker:And of course there are a number of other people, including a fellow Briton who is the chief executive these days, Price
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:But, Ken, you know, as I said, back in the day at UC Davis, I taught that class three times a year and every time Ken Came to talk to that class that speaks volumes on it and amazing But what he used to do was to talk how it was and how it is now So he'd show, you know his original cooler for example is his word cooler now It's you know, and how it is now and he'd show all the tanks that he welded And he talked about how he made his first Lauterton, you know, individually drilling the holes himself in person
Speaker:Oh
Speaker:to make his first Lauterton, you know, and now comparing to what they've got these days.
Speaker:So Ken, it's an amazing story.
Speaker:You know, people say to me, what, what book should I read?
Speaker:I said, well, if it's got the name Bamforth on it, you should make sure you read all that.
Speaker:But seriously,
Speaker:Agreed.
Speaker:I'm going to spend some time there.
Speaker:Ken Grossman's Beyond the Pale.
Speaker:is an amazing read.
Speaker:It's an amazing read.
Speaker:book.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:In person, he can, he brings that to life.
Speaker:So, yeah, let's see if I can persuade him to, to join you.
Speaker:But you know, he,
Speaker:wonderful.
Speaker:Can, can I, can I just make a quick shout out to the Sierra Nevada, and I call it green.
Speaker:The Sierra Nevada pale ale.
Speaker:That was my gateway.
Speaker:Into craft beer.
Speaker:That was your gateway into craft beer.
Speaker:That was everybody's gateway.
Speaker:It really was.
Speaker:Yeah, it really was.
Speaker:And that beer,
Speaker:you know, I'll, I'm going through the store and you know, celebration ale and whatever, but then you come by that.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:And you have one and you're just like, you're transported back into 1993 and you're like, Oh my gosh, this is still.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Unbelievably good.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And, and, and it's great for you to say that.
Speaker:And I encourage everybody to go out and buy a six pack, because it still remains.
Speaker:One of the great beers.
Speaker:And you know, I, from time to time, I have wacky ideas, things I suggest, and let me tell you.
Speaker:anything I suggest ain't going to change the way they produce Ciena out of pale ale.
Speaker:It's set in stone because it is such a success story.
Speaker:It's a brilliant beer.
Speaker:I mean, I have to say the ultimate pale ale in this country.
Speaker:I, I don't think any brewer would disagree with that and probably not most of the market.
Speaker:right.
Speaker:So everybody needs to go out and get a six pack of pale ale and see
Speaker:for
Speaker:I have a, I, I have a question.
Speaker:I, I'm sure you've, you've heard this joke before.
Speaker:It was a Monty Python joke.
Speaker:why is American beer like making love in a canoe?
Speaker:F include, F, you put the F,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:yes.
Speaker:I don't, I really don't think that was Monty Python.
Speaker:I, I miss a bit too,
Speaker:There was a live, they told it, I don't know where it came from, but they told it at the Hollywood Bowl,
Speaker:really,
Speaker:film.
Speaker:But you've been in the U. S. now a couple decades.
Speaker:I think that at one time maybe that may have been warranted, but what are the, has the beer scene in the U. S. changed a lot since you've been here?
Speaker:Oh yeah, it has, yeah.
Speaker:I mean, it's obviously there's a lot more breweries these days and, and different styles of product.
Speaker:When I came here, you know, for example you know, no hazy beer, not well, not officially, deliberately hazy.
Speaker:Thank goodness.
Speaker:and, you know, my days of bus, if I'd suggested hey, let's make a hazy beer, I wouldn't have survived very long.
Speaker:So that's a, that's a big difference.
Speaker:And there are some excellent products around, including from the company I advise.
Speaker:but, and, and they're harder to do than, than non hazy hazy beers in many ways.
Speaker:I will say I've stolen from conversations we've had with you on how to make the best ones.
Speaker:It's not trivial.
Speaker:no.
Speaker:so, so yeah, it's, it's different.
Speaker:There's a lot more, brewing companies.
Speaker:There's a lot of different styles of products around these, well, like I talked about earlier on, sort of the tendency to want to put, non-beer materials into beer and so on.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:It is a different world but I, I, I always, I'm delighted, you know, that we still see the, some of the, the pale ales of this world still alive and very much kicking.
Speaker:Charlie, can I close with one quick question before we have our formal ending?
Speaker:If you could put four People in this country on the Mount Rushmore of craft brewing.
Speaker:Who, who's on that mountain?
Speaker:Well, Ken Grossman first of all.
Speaker:first and foremost.
Speaker:I guess I would put Fritz, Fritz Maytag on there as well.
Speaker:I would put, it'd
Speaker:be easy to say Bobby Fleschman wouldn't it, but I, he would say.
Speaker:I have some, some stairs to climb.
Speaker:I would put Vinnie in there as well.
Speaker:and,
Speaker:I'm thinking else I might, include in there without,
Speaker:Can I, can I give you my last one?
Speaker:yeah,
Speaker:Charlie Papazian.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Charlie, Charlie's a good guy.
Speaker:Charlie's a good guy.
Speaker:Has anyone meant more to Kraft Brewing than Charlie Papazian?
Speaker:Now obviously he hasn't turned out the product that the others have.
Speaker:But
Speaker:you know, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I would be very careful.
Speaker:I, I, I wouldn't want, there's so many possibilities, you know, so many.
Speaker:people that I've, I've interacted with and met in the brewing industry that have done so much for the industry.
Speaker:So that it, you know, to my mind Ken is, is, is a complete no brainer, of a nominee.
Speaker:He, he would be, Straight off the bat, I would say it's like these, you know, say something and say, what's the first thing that comes to your mind?
Speaker:If I say this, then what you just said can, you know, after that, I would need to analyze and discuss and then come up with a reasoned priority list.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's awesome to hear from the inside because we think the same thing of Ken.
Speaker:For sure.
Speaker:We'd love to talk with him.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We'll see what we can do.
Speaker:Thank you for your time.
Speaker:This is amazing.
Speaker:And I, we're all very jealous of what's in your glass and how fresh it is.
Speaker:That's
Speaker:as well.
Speaker:Thank
Speaker:you, Charlie.
Speaker:It's good to meet you.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:Nice to meet you.
Speaker:So thank you very much.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:Cheers, Charlie.
Speaker:Cheers.
Speaker:Bye bye.
Speaker:Bye.
Speaker:And that is going to wrap up this episode of respecting the beer.
Speaker:Make sure to subscribe to the show and your favorite podcast players so you never miss an episode and join the Facebook group to get updates between the episodes and support the show over on Patreon.
Speaker:Links to both of these are in the show notes and until next time, please remember to respect the beer.
