Episode 66
From Witches to Craft Brewing: Women Brewers in Modern History
From witch's brooms to prohibition flappers, women continue to have a huge impact on brewing. Joel takes us through more recent history of women in brewing, including shouting out women currently brewing great beer!
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TIMELINE
00:00 Women in Brewing PART 2!
03:28 Impact of the Plague on Brewing
05:25 Commercialization and Standardization of Beer
13:58 The Witchcraft Connection
20:12 The Upstairs Transformation
20:24 Women in Beer Advertisements
21:09 Prohibition and Repeal Movement
22:05 The Role of Women in Brewing History
23:05 The Flapper Era and Women's Liberation
28:33 Craft Beer Movement and Women's Reassertion
29:44 Celebrating Women Brewers
33:11 Inclusivity in Craft Beer
37:45 Final Thoughts and Wrap-Up
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CREDITS
Hosts:
Joel Hermansan
Music by Sarah Lynn Huss
Recorded & Produced by David Kalsow
Brought to you by McFleshman's Brewing Co
Transcript
Hello everyone.
Gary Arndt:My name is Gary Arndt and welcome to another episode of Respecting the Beer.
Gary Arndt:With me again is the usual cast of characters we got.
Gary Arndt:The historian of hops, Mr. Joel Hermanson, and, uh, the man who was about to announce that they're gonna be coming with a special version of 5 47, where he is going to soak in it like a teabag for an hour in the vat to create this Joel Hermansan special edition 5 47.
Gary Arndt:This is, we're looking forward to it approved of what that, uh, airplane tastes like.
Allison Fleshman:Like bog myrtle probably hit, hit the ground running.
Joel Hermansan:Oh, thank you Gary.
Joel Hermansan:Glad to be here.
Gary Arndt:We also have Bobby Fleshman who is trying to attempt to convince his wife that platinum is a shiny thing and that if they converted all their brewing equipment to that from stainless steel, it could lead to a 3% improvement in the taste of the beer.
Gary Arndt:Good luck on that.
Allison Fleshman:Just a 3%.
Bobby Fleshman:Right?
Bobby Fleshman:There's something even more rare than that, right?
Bobby Fleshman:We could pursue, so it won't be as bad as that
Gary Arndt:Iridium?
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:Right.
Allison Fleshman:I don't have my periodic table.
Allison Fleshman:No.
Gary Arndt:And we also have with us again, the good doctor.
Gary Arndt:Alison McCoy Fleshman, whose most recent research paper is on the Heisenberg Inebriation principle, that someone can be both drunk and not drunk and you can never prove it.
Allison Fleshman:It's a super position.
Allison Fleshman:That's funny.
Gary Arndt:Yeah, we got, we got that going on, so, so when we last left, we're about to get into the plague.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:Well.
Allison Fleshman:Okay.
Allison Fleshman:I was just gonna say we were focusing on women interrupted.
Allison Fleshman:And the plague.
Allison Fleshman:And the plague.
Joel Hermansan:Right.
Joel Hermansan:How there, I mean, there's, there's really in, in women in brewing, right?
Joel Hermansan:We're, we're
Allison Fleshman:And the importance of them.
Joel Hermansan:Yes.
Joel Hermansan:And we're talking about the dynamics that led to, as we did in episode one.
Joel Hermansan:And if you haven't joined us for episode one of this series.
Joel Hermansan:Please go ahead and pause this episode and head back over to that one.
Joel Hermansan:But we talked about the changing dynamic of the role that women played in brewing.
Joel Hermansan:Mm-hmm.
Joel Hermansan:Which was the dominant one for the longest time.
Joel Hermansan:Yes, it was an ascending role, but now we're gonna kind of change that role and we're gonna bring that role, uh, into a different direction.
Joel Hermansan:And one of the things that we had talked about in the last episode was.
Joel Hermansan:Hilde using the, um, the hop as a preserving agent in beer, which changed the dynamic of the production of beer in Europe.
Joel Hermansan:And it started to make it more of a commercialized endeavor.
Joel Hermansan:And as, as we talked about in the last episode when brewing went from a domestic activity to more of a commercial activity, particularly after the development of capitalism, the role changes.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:It's unmistakable and quick reminder
Allison Fleshman:of Hildegard.
Allison Fleshman:So as, oh, Gary's taking a bite of food.
Allison Fleshman:So Hildegard Vegan is a polymath amazing woman, priestess Saint in the Catholic church canonized in 2012.
Allison Fleshman:There's an amazing episode of everything everywhere daily that goes into her amazingness.
Allison Fleshman:But she was the first one to write down at least that hops could be used to preserve beer.
Joel Hermansan:And canonized in a world class pilsner here on state's True street in Appleton, Wisconsin.
Joel Hermansan:Hilde, pil, she's a own gorgeous Bobby Bushman.
Joel Hermansan:Check
Allison Fleshman:Pilsner.
Joel Hermansan:Bobby is bowing right now.
Joel Hermansan:You can't see it
Allison Fleshman:as you should always falling to the hilde guard the stage.
Allison Fleshman:Okay, so plague.
Joel Hermansan:Yes plague.
Joel Hermansan:What the hell
Allison Fleshman:does the plague have to do with women?
Allison Fleshman:Oh my gosh.
Joel Hermansan:What doesn't the plague have to do with it?
Joel Hermansan:This is a no with women.
Joel Hermansan:Huge.
Joel Hermansan:Yes.
Joel Hermansan:Huge part of the story.
Joel Hermansan:So did women cause the plague?
Joel Hermansan:If so, I'm gonna No, no, not, not in the least.
Joel Hermansan:Thank you.
Joel Hermansan:But what happens is in certain parts of Europe plague will claim upwards of, you know, 40, 45% of, of the people in certain parts, for example, of Southern Italy.
Joel Hermansan:So it causes so much depopulation and population loss and death, et cetera.
Joel Hermansan:That What happens in the period after the plague?
Allison Fleshman:Wait, when are we?
Joel Hermansan:We're in the 14th century.
Allison Fleshman:Okay,
Joel Hermansan:so what happens in the period after the plague?
Joel Hermansan:Is that wages go up.
Joel Hermansan:This is a supply and demand.
Joel Hermansan:David Ricardo Thomas Malus, iron Law of Wages discussion, but wages go up.
Joel Hermansan:People have more expendable income to buy beer, uh, as the population of Europe has, you know, kind of in Thanos, if you will.
Joel Hermansan:And, and we, we see almost blue
Allison Fleshman:beer out my nose.
Gary Arndt:That's actually a good way to describe it though.
Gary Arndt:It really is.
Gary Arndt:That's a perfect way to.
Gary Arndt:That's how words were.
Gary Arndt:Very slow Thanos.
Joel Hermansan:But
Allison Fleshman:it's a slow, painful Thanos.
Allison Fleshman:Right.
Allison Fleshman:But yeah, that's a,
Joel Hermansan:it was, was that better than my air yeast?
Allison Fleshman:Yes.
Allison Fleshman:Very much so.
Gary Arndt:Cling to that.
Gary Arndt:No.
Gary Arndt:Oh my God.
Gary Arndt:I'll say one of the reasons why wages went up is because this was kind of the beginning of the end of feudalism because there were so few people, right?
Gary Arndt:People had the ability to just leave the properties they were working at.
Gary Arndt:There was competition.
Gary Arndt:Uh, they weren't stuck.
Gary Arndt:And, um, at least in Western Europe, this was kind of the.
Gary Arndt:The beginning of the end of it, which is one of the reasons why wages went up and Oh wow.
Gary Arndt:Fields ended up becoming, going back to nature in a lot of places.
Gary Arndt:'cause there was nobody to kind
Allison Fleshman:of
Gary Arndt:till them,
Allison Fleshman:like post COVID, we had the great resignation where everyone just changed jobs because they could.
Allison Fleshman:Right.
Allison Fleshman:Interesting.
Joel Hermansan:Well, and you know, and the other thing that was produced by this is because of the plague, because of the wage increase, you had increased consumption, but you also had a demand for a better product.
Joel Hermansan:You know, people aren't just accepting the small table beer that was being manufactured, you know, in the homes and you know, people would gradually try to sell a little bit of their surplus table beer to a neighbor.
Joel Hermansan:No.
Joel Hermansan:All of a sudden beer is becoming.
Joel Hermansan:And the Ryan Heitz boat is gonna change this as well.
Joel Hermansan:But beer starts to become a commercialized endeavor.
Joel Hermansan:It starts to become standardized.
Joel Hermansan:People want the same color when they, you know, come and order a pint.
Joel Hermansan:They want it to look like the one that they had last time.
Joel Hermansan:They want it to taste like that.
Joel Hermansan:And in order to do these things, and this is where the role of women change, in order to do these things, it requires capitalization.
Joel Hermansan:And as part of that process of capitalization.
Joel Hermansan:I, and, and again, I, I hate to be the one, you know, to say this 'cause I'm not at all chauvinistic, but at this point in the human experience in the 15th, 14th, 15th century if, if you're starting a capital endeavor, the men were the ones who were likely to secure the capital to do that.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:But the
Bobby Fleshman:labor, I would imagine was still being supplied by women, still by the women for most of this time
Joel Hermansan:until the establishment of guilds.
Joel Hermansan:Ah, yeah.
Joel Hermansan:And then you're in the 15 hundreds.
Allison Fleshman:So I wonder in, and Shirley, you've done, I just looked to Gary 'cause he is done every kind of possible podcast ever on the history of all things.
Allison Fleshman:Like the, the change of the washing machine.
Allison Fleshman:So you bring the washing machine in and it does the laundry for you so that women don't have to do the laundry anymore.
Allison Fleshman:That frees up a little bit of time.
Gary Arndt:Oh me, this.
Gary Arndt:I could talk about this for a long time.
Gary Arndt:I
Allison Fleshman:imagine.
Allison Fleshman:Is it the same kind of way in which if you commercialize the brewing process now women don't have, so is it liberating that women don't have to do the beer now because the amount of beer that we were talking about in the last episode that you have to brew, which.
Allison Fleshman:Joel, the numbers you share are just phenomenal.
Allison Fleshman:About like 12 gallons brewing daily.
Allison Fleshman:Like that's a lot of time.
Allison Fleshman:And the care that goes into the fermentation and then there's, it's not just you bake or you boil the beer and then it's done.
Allison Fleshman:There's a lot of tending that you have to do afterwards.
Allison Fleshman:And if you have beer at every, to have beer ready daily means you have to have beer in a week's time at seven days worth of different stages.
Allison Fleshman:And so the amount of work and care that that takes is this liberating for women.
Allison Fleshman:Well, and
Joel Hermansan:storage and,
Allison Fleshman:yeah, and just the space and the time.
Allison Fleshman:And people were,
Joel Hermansan:were selling their products at local markets and things like that.
Joel Hermansan:I mean, so it doesn't sound like
Allison Fleshman:co I mean, to me commercialization actually sounds like a win.
Bobby Fleshman:And the motivation for brewing, I've mentioned earlier, is different in every era.
Bobby Fleshman:This was also an era where it was supplying sustenance.
Bobby Fleshman:So this was, this was a food source.
Bobby Fleshman:This was like, cooking is what I'm imagining, right?
Bobby Fleshman:On the home level.
Joel Hermansan:And then when it hits the guild level.
Joel Hermansan:You know, guilds are organizations that again, are, are interested in standardizing process of production of distribution, of sale, et cetera.
Joel Hermansan:So when it hits the guild level and there's specific organizations that are participating in these guilds, these organizations were.
Joel Hermansan:You know, again, male-centric.
Joel Hermansan:Mm-hmm.
Joel Hermansan:At this point, money has lot to say
Bobby Fleshman:about this evolution.
Bobby Fleshman:It does.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah, it does.
Joel Hermansan:And you know,
Allison Fleshman:well, and let's not forget who's tending to the children.
Allison Fleshman:I mean, just the timewise like, just like the societal structures.
Allison Fleshman:Like I don't, women probably couldn't go to these places to meet and gather.
Allison Fleshman:Right.
Joel Hermansan:And, you know, a a, a great example of, you know, the principle that you're talking about is Martin Luther's wife, Caterina.
Joel Hermansan:'cause that is at the exact same time that.
Joel Hermansan:This process of guilds mm-hmm.
Joel Hermansan:And whatnot are happening.
Joel Hermansan:And Martin Luther, you know, said many, many times in various writings that, and this is why he was so open to women leadership in the church, and he would've felt the same way about brewing.
Joel Hermansan:He felt his wife Caterina was the most capable person he knew.
Joel Hermansan:Mm-hmm.
Joel Hermansan:She brewed the best beer.
Joel Hermansan:She, he loved.
Joel Hermansan:The beers that, the Berlin Vice in particular that she made, I mean, she was doing a number of different styles.
Joel Hermansan:You know, it wasn't like, okay, here's your, you know, here's your gruy brownish beverage.
Joel Hermansan:I mean, she, she had, you know, a, a profile that, that she was building.
Joel Hermansan:So most of these changes, just to echo something that Bobby just said a couple minutes ago these changes really are about capitalization and the building of breweries and the advancement in technology and equipment, et cetera, et cetera, is, is kind of what's leading to this change.
Joel Hermansan:And then I think, you know, the one thing that, that kind of cements the change.
Joel Hermansan:Is the Rhine Hez Gabo, and when the Rhine Hez Gabo, which if you haven't listened to our two part series on the Rhine Hez Gabo it's still my favorite.
Bobby Fleshman:It does derail podcast.
Bobby Fleshman:It gets back on track, but
Joel Hermansan:it is spectacular.
Joel Hermansan:But the Rhine Hez Gabo, again, is all about standardization.
Joel Hermansan:Uh, with kind of an eye towards food safety, et cetera.
Joel Hermansan:And when you are standardizing what can go into the beers and as Bobby has talked about, and I'll let him spin a yarn off of this in just a second, if you are limited by your ingredients and this increases capitalization, again, you have to extend your technology and you're getting around the fact that you can only use water malt.
Joel Hermansan:And I'm forgetting the third ingredient.
Joel Hermansan:Water.
Joel Hermansan:Water,
Bobby Fleshman:malt, yeast.
Joel Hermansan:Hops.
Joel Hermansan:Hops.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:No, yeast was second by.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah, yeah.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:Joel forgot hops.
Joel Hermansan:It goes
Bobby Fleshman:along
Joel Hermansan:for the ride.
Joel Hermansan:I did, I did.
Joel Hermansan:We'll edit that out right as I'm drinking a 5 47.
Bobby Fleshman:Make sure it's obviously been edited out
Joel Hermansan:right but you said in the Rhine Heitz Gabo episode.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:That the way around that.
Joel Hermansan:Was technology and technique, I think was your exact quote.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:That that's which is gonna cost money.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah, exactly.
Bobby Fleshman:Being able to produce something for a market.
Bobby Fleshman:You know, we, the, the, the market was created and they had to learn to reproduce on a scale that people started to come to expect, and they created their own monster.
Bobby Fleshman:They created this, the market responded to it, knowing what they're getting.
Bobby Fleshman:Every time I imagine there was something like an Anheuser-Busch of its time, you know, in every county or let's say.
Bobby Fleshman:And that grew and grew and grew as the market required that it do.
Bobby Fleshman:So Charlie Bamforth was my mentor in brewing, and he said, quality is about repeatability.
Bobby Fleshman:I. He says, you can argue about all the nuances of what people think is good or bad, but he says quality is about repeatability.
Bobby Fleshman:And I think that all this leading to a future where beer is very technical and it's being constrained by the Rhine Heights Cabo, and that drives new equipment and processes and raw ingredients and so on and so on.
Bobby Fleshman:So, yeah, I do think that it, it laid that foundation for sure.
Joel Hermansan:So when you add guilds and Rhine Heights, Cabos kind of at simultaneously, you know, you're driving the cost way up and it starts to become like these large family owned regional conglomerates and the heads of of these families, you know, oftentimes in 16th century Germany are, are men.
Joel Hermansan:So the process starts to, to move to men, despite the fact that women carried it to this point.
Gary Arndt:Well, Charleston, this is primarily at this point, like an urban phenomenon.
Joel Hermansan:Yes, thank you.
Joel Hermansan:Oh, good point.
Joel Hermansan:That's
Gary Arndt:where the people were.
Gary Arndt:Obviously there was still limitations on how far you could ship beer at this time.
Gary Arndt:Uh, shipping liquids is notoriously difficult.
Gary Arndt:There's limitations
Allison Fleshman:when you can ship beer here now, today.
Gary Arndt:Those are more legal.
Gary Arndt:Women still would've been doing this in like smaller communities, farms.
Gary Arndt:Or like Martin Luther's wife for the home that didn't disappear.
Gary Arndt:It's just that you now had more specialization occurring in the economy.
Gary Arndt:So there would be some people that wouldn't have to brew beer, they would just go to the Ale house or something instead.
Gary Arndt:Right.
Joel Hermansan:And we're gonna transition to a topic.
Joel Hermansan:I know you've been eager to talk about.
Joel Hermansan:So excited by this.
Joel Hermansan:Yes.
Joel Hermansan:Yes.
Joel Hermansan:So as we move past the Rhine Heights Gabo, which is in the 16th century and we moved to the 17th, the 17th century is the witch, since, you know, this is the witch century, so many people are
Allison Fleshman:flabbergasted.
Allison Fleshman:When I shared this idea,
Joel Hermansan:I, when I was reading, and I, I, I think I knew parts of this, but when I was reading in particular about the, icons of witchcraft and how they're directly related to tell the story.
Joel Hermansan:First just brewing.
Joel Hermansan:I was just, just
Allison Fleshman:share the story.
Joel Hermansan:Okay.
Joel Hermansan:So first of all, you don't, you think of a witch.
Joel Hermansan:Okay.
Joel Hermansan:We think of like a pointy hat, right?
Joel Hermansan:Pointy
Allison Fleshman:hat, black hat.
Joel Hermansan:So those, those were worn by Brewsters.
Joel Hermansan:We had a
Allison Fleshman:broom.
Allison Fleshman:You had a caldron.
Allison Fleshman:And a caldron.
Allison Fleshman:All the thing.
Allison Fleshman:Well, well let, let's do hats first.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:Hats first.
Joel Hermansan:So the Brewster, they would wear these hats.
Allison Fleshman:Hang on.
Allison Fleshman:So the, so these are women?
Allison Fleshman:These are women.
Joel Hermansan:I'm sorry.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:So
Allison Fleshman:these are women.
Allison Fleshman:Oh, I mean, no, Brewster is, oh no, that's, this is a good term.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:Brewster's, a woman, a female brewer.
Joel Hermansan:Right.
Allison Fleshman:So these are women who, from my understanding, they were, either they lost their husband or they're making money.
Allison Fleshman:Yes.
Allison Fleshman:In the village.
Allison Fleshman:Selling beer.
Allison Fleshman:Selling beer because they're, they can make beer.
Allison Fleshman:That's what they do, and they sell it.
Allison Fleshman:So this domestic or this, this commercialization.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:This, this was their livelihood.
Allison Fleshman:They made beer and they sell, sold it.
Joel Hermansan:And they're, they're wearing the large pointy hat.
Joel Hermansan:Right.
Joel Hermansan:You need
Allison Fleshman:to marketing.
Allison Fleshman:We have learned that Bobby and I suck it marketing, and it's all about marketing your product.
Allison Fleshman:You have a, don't anything with
Bobby Fleshman:that knowledge, but we've learned it.
Bobby Fleshman:I
Allison Fleshman:know we were constantly reminded by Gary, but,
Joel Hermansan:And I, I don't mean to throw any shade at you, but if I'm out here at a packed.
Joel Hermansan:Lager fest.
Joel Hermansan:Which by the way, you can get an early bird discount if you buy your tickets right now, first weekend.
Joel Hermansan:Oh,
Bobby Fleshman:see.
Bobby Fleshman:And he hasn't, he has learned it where we haven't.
Joel Hermansan:So if you're out in the middle of Lager Fest, okay, and I'm a huge fan of yours, as you know, go team.
Joel Hermansan:But I'm not gonna see you in a crown unless you're wearing like a large hat.
Allison Fleshman:I am very short.
Allison Fleshman:I am a short woman.
Joel Hermansan:So the purpose, I need a pointy hat, right?
Joel Hermansan:The.
Joel Hermansan:And I'm doing the pointy hat with my hands.
Joel Hermansan:I don't know why I'm doing that, but the pointy hat was so that they could be seen in a crowd.
Allison Fleshman:Yep.
Allison Fleshman:Seen in a crowd.
Allison Fleshman:Allison
Gary Arndt:must wear this at Lagger Fest.
Allison Fleshman:I am gonna wear Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:A point.
Allison Fleshman:Oh, you know what I,
Gary Arndt:with your dural.
Gary Arndt:Come on.
Gary Arndt:A pointy hat
Allison Fleshman:on full on dural getup.
Allison Fleshman:It might look like a witch.
Allison Fleshman:It's gonna be great.
Allison Fleshman:Okay.
Allison Fleshman:Anyway, so I'm standing on the corner.
Allison Fleshman:I've got my in the village and I'm like trying to sell my beer.
Allison Fleshman:I've got this pointy hat on, but I've also got this cauldron of beer that I'm brewing.
Allison Fleshman:'cause if you are selling beer, you have to constantly have to make beer.
Allison Fleshman:'cause you can't make it on that large of a scale,
Joel Hermansan:right?
Joel Hermansan:So the cauldron that witches off and hover over, they brew.
Joel Hermansan:Brew.
Joel Hermansan:If you picture that, that's about 11
Bobby Fleshman:gallons.
Bobby Fleshman:We're talking about the size of this thing.
Bobby Fleshman:They also,
Allison Fleshman:which is how do you fall in that and get hurt.
Allison Fleshman:But again, rocks.
Allison Fleshman:I rocks still think these
Bobby Fleshman:exploding rocks might have something to do with it.
Bobby Fleshman:It, but
Allison Fleshman:then.
Joel Hermansan:That was a mind blowing moment.
Joel Hermansan:Mm-hmm.
Joel Hermansan:By the way, I loved it when you told that story.
Allison Fleshman:I am stealing your story, aren't I?
Allison Fleshman:Because then you need a cat to eat the mice.
Allison Fleshman:Yes.
Allison Fleshman:I love it so much,
Joel Hermansan:but you're missing the big one.
Allison Fleshman:Oh, the fact that you need to just like sweep up the grain so you have a broom.
Joel Hermansan:No, that's uh, well, yes,
Allison Fleshman:right,
Joel Hermansan:but why?
Joel Hermansan:What did they do with the broom?
Joel Hermansan:They put the broom on their front door as a sign that they had beer.
Joel Hermansan:No.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah, yeah.
Joel Hermansan:There
Bobby Fleshman:we go.
Bobby Fleshman:This is our Halloween episode.
Bobby Fleshman:Let's just keep going.
Bobby Fleshman:Here it is our Halloween episode.
Bobby Fleshman:Pumpkin Nails Next, but.
Allison Fleshman:Oh my God.
Allison Fleshman:Jade, you're next.
Allison Fleshman:I'm now looking at my kid.
Allison Fleshman:She's always, she's always in the background of these.
Allison Fleshman:Mm-hmm.
Allison Fleshman:She's such a great little kid.
Allison Fleshman:Anyway, your next Halloween costume, you're gonna be a Brewster, a real Brewster.
Joel Hermansan:She gave me a thumbs up.
Joel Hermansan:She, yep, she's confirmed.
Joel Hermansan:So all of the symbols, the, these icons that we associate with witchcraft all have a clear.
Joel Hermansan:Connection to brewing to
Allison Fleshman:women
Joel Hermansan:in brewing.
Joel Hermansan:To women in brewing, right.
Joel Hermansan:I mean it the, the connection is.
Joel Hermansan:Unmistakable.
Joel Hermansan:So this is at the, so why did
Allison Fleshman:it get lost to history?
Allison Fleshman:Why is the witch narrative the dominant narrative that comes out?
Joel Hermansan:Well, I think Salem is what, is, what did that, and Salem actually, when you dig deep down into it, I mean they, there is the rye rod theory that you were talking about earlier.
Allison Fleshman:So they drank snail ale.
Allison Fleshman:That's what happened.
Joel Hermansan:Oh, I, I'll tell you what, if that makes me a witch, pour me a pint.
Joel Hermansan:Right?
Joel Hermansan:Because snail ale is.
Joel Hermansan:Is world class.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:We just need to tweak the record.
Joel Hermansan:And if Christoph is listening, he's probably driving over right now.
Joel Hermansan:But the, what was happening at Salem actually wasn't witchcraft because they were actually, if you look at the map of the accusers and the accused.
Joel Hermansan:The accusers all lived in Salem town and Salem Village was the rural element, which is where the accused were living.
Joel Hermansan:And it was almost always, whether it's Giles and Martha Corey it, it was almost always related to land disputes.
Allison Fleshman:Oh my gosh.
Joel Hermansan:And they used, you know, the, the convenient stereotype as you were going to, of the single.
Joel Hermansan:You know, divorced, widowed, whatever.
Joel Hermansan:I wouldn't have been divorced in Puritan New England.
Joel Hermansan:But the widowed person, as the, the easy mark to
Allison Fleshman:go after the land.
Allison Fleshman:Oh, them ass hats.
Allison Fleshman:Oh my, I probably should say that that movement totally
Joel Hermansan:derailed when they accused someone like Rebecca nurse whose reputation in the, in the town was, I mean, it was pristine.
Joel Hermansan:And everyone's like, Rebecca nurse, like really?
Joel Hermansan:Did you do it on everything everywhere on Salem?
Joel Hermansan:Yep.
Joel Hermansan:I gotta check that one out.
Joel Hermansan:I bet that's a good one.
Joel Hermansan:It is.
Joel Hermansan:They all are.
Joel Hermansan:They all are.
Joel Hermansan:Of course.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:He should do one on his own.
Bobby Fleshman:Humility.
Bobby Fleshman:That would be a good episode.
Allison Fleshman:Oh, we should do one.
Allison Fleshman:That'd be fun.
Allison Fleshman:Oh,
Bobby Fleshman:I'm the most humble.
Allison Fleshman:No one humble.
Allison Fleshman:Oh my god.
Bobby Fleshman:Most humility ever.
Bobby Fleshman:Oh.
Allison Fleshman:So yeah, I think that, I dunno, I, I wanna raise a glass to all the women barster out there who wore those pointy hats and had the, the, you know, help kind of extend this,
Joel Hermansan:this.
Joel Hermansan:There's a picture in here of that somewhere.
Joel Hermansan:We should say
Bobby Fleshman:this room that we're in.
Bobby Fleshman:Oh my God.
Bobby Fleshman:We should talk about this room.
Bobby Fleshman:The wall of this very room.
Allison Fleshman:Oh, our prohibition room.
Allison Fleshman:I did a class on this room.
Allison Fleshman:You did?
Allison Fleshman:Okay.
Allison Fleshman:So we are sitting in what we named the prohibition room.
Allison Fleshman:This is the upstairs that you can get to via a staircase from our tap room because the one Gary Arnt was like, Hey, you should build a secure case to like get up to the stairs.
Allison Fleshman:And within a month we had it built.
Bobby Fleshman:Showed use cask.
Allison Fleshman:Yep.
Allison Fleshman:Anyway.
Allison Fleshman:So, uh, my father-in-law who's, uh, part owner of the company, he was like, Hey, it'd be really cool to have some of those, you know, pretty pictures.
Allison Fleshman:Like this old women advertisements from like the thirties of women in beer and there's a beard de lause and I can't remember the artist.
Allison Fleshman:And there's a couple others that are kind of art new Vo.
Allison Fleshman:And there are these paintings of these women and he's like, oh, those are really pretty, we should do that.
Allison Fleshman:And I was like, yeah, women in beer.
Allison Fleshman:That's cool.
Allison Fleshman:And women in beer.
Allison Fleshman:You think the Budweiser large breast, you know, short skirt kind of really?
Allison Fleshman:I, I don't even know what to call it.
Allison Fleshman:It just crap.
Bobby Fleshman:Dumbing down of the lager era.
Bobby Fleshman:Well, I was gonna, not dumbing
Allison Fleshman:down of the lager.
Allison Fleshman:I was gonna say the, the inappropriate Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:You know, showcasing of women in the wrong way.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:So I found.
Allison Fleshman:Pictures from the Associated Press of all the women behind repeal.
Allison Fleshman:So you have prohibition, but then there was this huge repeal movement to end prohibition and the women behind all the efforts of the legal efforts to end prohibition, which was essentially repeal, which we celebrate.
Allison Fleshman:Repeal day is December s. Fifth, eighth, eighth, eighth, fifth.
Allison Fleshman:Oh, wait.
Allison Fleshman:Oh, it just says ratified December, early December.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:December 5th, 1933.
Allison Fleshman:But if you come up to the upstairs, you'll see probably, I don't know, 40 or so pictures, maybe 50.
Allison Fleshman:And I think
Joel Hermansan:where you were going with this is the sheer volume of women.
Joel Hermansan:Women, the work that change the narrative.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:And change the, to be fair.
Gary Arndt:Women were largely responsible for ion.
Gary Arndt:That's true.
Gary Arndt:Well,
Allison Fleshman:though, not these women, women, the difference movement.
Allison Fleshman:No, they were D women.
Allison Fleshman:These are different women.
Allison Fleshman:These are women that have their shit.
Allison Fleshman:There's a whole other,
Bobby Fleshman:but show there.
Bobby Fleshman:Uh,
Joel Hermansan:but no, you're, you're exactly right because when you get past, and, and this is one of the future things that we have to discuss, you know, women were largely responsible for temperance.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:Which, and a lot of the suffragettes were, but the changed the nature of women in brewing.
Joel Hermansan:The fun
Allison Fleshman:part as our producer, David Castle's walking around right now they, I, with the Associated Press, these are, these are, I mean these pictures are a hundred years old.
Allison Fleshman:And they, I've got little snippets and so I printed out little snippets and so you get to learn about the pictures that have these little captions on them about who these women were, what they were doing, why they were doing what they were doing, and all the work that went into ending the worst moment.
Allison Fleshman:Well, I mean, we might be in the worst moment in history of the American.
Allison Fleshman:What happened, I think, think is you
Gary Arndt:had this 19th century women's movement.
Gary Arndt:Like I said, the Temperance Movement and the suffrage movement were.
Gary Arndt:Very closely tied, as was the abolitionist movement.
Gary Arndt:Mm-hmm.
Gary Arndt:They were all kind of the same.
Gary Arndt:Yep.
Gary Arndt:But in the 1920s you saw a change of women in society.
Gary Arndt:You saw the flappers, which was a very different kind of thing.
Gary Arndt:And this brand new this is kind of the start of women's liberation actually.
Gary Arndt:Okay.
Joel Hermansan:Before we get to this, can I just mention one, one tangent note.
Joel Hermansan:Between what we were talking about with witchcraft and this, 'cause we're gonna stay on this 'cause you guys are on a roll.
Joel Hermansan:Industrialization happened and obviously that changed the role of, of brewing 'cause now it's happening on an oh scale.
Joel Hermansan:Oh gosh.
Joel Hermansan:But anyway, but I can't, please continue the prohibition.
Joel Hermansan:I can't.
Joel Hermansan:I have
Allison Fleshman:a picture of a woman.
Allison Fleshman:This is such a great picture, David.
Allison Fleshman:And I'll let you take pictures so you can post it.
Allison Fleshman:Anyway, it's a picture of a flapper and it's a picture of a non flapper in 19.
Allison Fleshman:I wanna say this is 1920.
Allison Fleshman:Um, so Lois Bancroft Long was an American writer for the New Yorker during the 1920s who wrote about the speakeasy lifestyle with a liberated women's perspective under the pen name lipstick.
Allison Fleshman:And so lipstick.
Allison Fleshman:She was basically this woman who went into all the speakeasy.
Allison Fleshman:She went in all the provision rooms and figured out like all the things that were going on, and you've got the most wonderful picture of her versus the.
Allison Fleshman:Antiquated woman with, I don't even know what to call that.
Allison Fleshman:Bustles on her shoulders like this is.
Allison Fleshman:Well,
Gary Arndt:that's actually a really good photo because it shows like when you think of the suffragettes mm-hmm.
Gary Arndt:They're dressed in a certain way.
Gary Arndt:Absolutely.
Gary Arndt:They have the big hats.
Gary Arndt:They had the sashes and then you think of a flapper.
Gary Arndt:Totally different.
Gary Arndt:Oh
Allison Fleshman:my gosh.
Allison Fleshman:True liberation.
Allison Fleshman:Somebody say
Gary Arndt:it was different people that fought for prohibition and then fought for the repeal of prohibition.
Gary Arndt:There was a big change, and oddly enough, I think prohibition caused.
Gary Arndt:The flappers.
Gary Arndt:Mm. It drove this underground where this type of behavior maybe wasn't acceptable beforehand out in public.
Gary Arndt:Once it was driven underground into speakeasies, you know,
Allison Fleshman:let it go, whatever.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Gary Arndt:And then, so that was in, you know, may have paradoxically caused a lot of that to happen.
Allison Fleshman:Wow.
Gary Arndt:And,
Allison Fleshman:and finally we could show our ankles, which is what God damn
Bobby Fleshman:deal.
Bobby Fleshman:So Suff suffrage in the end of prohibition were this same, these people were united to for, to help one another's cause.
Bobby Fleshman:No,
Allison Fleshman:I don't know if that's
Joel Hermansan:true.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:To a degree.
Joel Hermansan:But to circle back to the topic at hand, this then is going to continue to diminish the role of women in brewing.
Joel Hermansan:Because if women are leading temperance.
Joel Hermansan:And they're the ones holding the signs and, and trying to get the tide houses closed, et cetera.
Joel Hermansan:If you're a woman that's engaged in brewing, you're going to, you know, keep the tide house open.
Joel Hermansan:You're gonna, you're gonna draw the ire of a portion of the community that you don't really want their attention.
Gary Arndt:And to be fair to the, the women in the temperate movement.
Gary Arndt:Drinking was a big problem in the early 19th century.
Gary Arndt:Like Americans consumed a ridiculous amount of alcohol and it wasn't like the three gallons a day the monks were drinking of watered down ale.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:Like they were, there was less beer.
Gary Arndt:Yeah.
Gary Arndt:Hard stuff.
Gary Arndt:Yeah.
Gary Arndt:And we were not a alcohol.
Gary Arndt:Okay.
Gary Arndt:Once you hard stuff, we were not a beer nation then.
Gary Arndt:Alcohol was a, alcoholism was a huge problem.
Gary Arndt:And this really was almost exclusively men.
Gary Arndt:And that was why women were largely driving this.
Gary Arndt:I, is it Annie Oakley?
Bobby Fleshman:Do I have that right?
Bobby Fleshman:No.
Bobby Fleshman:Wait, I might, who was look to the historian.
Bobby Fleshman:I
Gary Arndt:don't idea.
Gary Arndt:Yeah.
Gary Arndt:Oakley was, no, she was, she was a hard drinking.
Gary Arndt:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:I get the wrong reference.
Bobby Fleshman:Who, who was part of the abolition hatchet?
Bobby Fleshman:Annie.
Bobby Fleshman:Annie.
Bobby Fleshman:I knew it was Annie.
Bobby Fleshman:There it is.
Bobby Fleshman:Hatchet Annie.
Bobby Fleshman:And there's a story about a Kansas bar where she throws a Kerry Nation.
Bobby Fleshman:Carry nation.
Bobby Fleshman:Mm-hmm.
Bobby Fleshman:That's it.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:She would go
Gary Arndt:in with and literally destroy.
Gary Arndt:Yeah.
Gary Arndt:And because she was a woman, they couldn't, like, physically, everyone was afraid to stop her.
Gary Arndt:Yeah.
Gary Arndt:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:Plus she was, she was badass.
Gary Arndt:Yeah.
Gary Arndt:Well, she got arrested many times.
Gary Arndt:Like she would go in and she would, she would just announce it like, I'm gonna.
Gary Arndt:I'm gonna, I'm gonna walk in there and destroy all her alcohol.
Allison Fleshman:Okay.
Allison Fleshman:So she was anti drinking.
Allison Fleshman:She was
Gary Arndt:responding to liquor.
Gary Arndt:Carrie was a hardcore temperance.
Gary Arndt:Got it.
Gary Arndt:Person, her, yeah.
Gary Arndt:Responding to problem.
Gary Arndt:Actually dunno much about
Allison Fleshman:the reasons behind.
Allison Fleshman:He was a militant.
Gary Arndt:She was in the, she was a, she.
Gary Arndt:I care more about repeal temperance.
Allison Fleshman:Okay.
Allison Fleshman:Like, here we go.
Gary Arndt:Yep.
Allison Fleshman:So back to women and brewing.
Allison Fleshman:It's all
Bobby Fleshman:related though.
Allison Fleshman:It is.
Allison Fleshman:I, I, I, so, I mean, I'd rather well Okay.
Allison Fleshman:Well maybe then we should talk about the men who have brought down.
Allison Fleshman:Well, no, 'cause I wanna don't talk podcast.
Allison Fleshman:Who brought down guest
Joel Hermansan:today celebrating women.
Allison Fleshman:Yes.
Allison Fleshman:We should celebrate women.
Allison Fleshman:So you get
Joel Hermansan:to the Mad Men period.
Joel Hermansan:And I, I refer to this as the 1950s advertising, you know, where we've all seen beer ads from the 1950s and sixties where women are.
Joel Hermansan:You know, holding the beer for the husband as they walk through the door from work and they're expected to, you know, convey this.
Joel Hermansan:Donna Reed.
Joel Hermansan:I'd like us all to just take a moment and think about my facial
Allison Fleshman:expression right now, about this time.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:Maybe gonna go on Patreon.
Joel Hermansan:But this, I think, contributes to this kind of marginalization of women and the marginalization of women in brewing.
Joel Hermansan:It coincides with a period that Bobby and I talk about in brewing often, which is this banality of brewing where you have this period of the macro lager pills for 25 years, 40 years or whatever the length of time until you know Coors pops on the scene and starts, you know, brewing a beer that's just a little bit different, and then everyone's like, oh my gosh, we can make beer.
Joel Hermansan:That's different.
Joel Hermansan:The last part of this process.
Joel Hermansan:Is the craft beer movement, and that has started to shift the pendulum back.
Joel Hermansan:Now all of a sudden where with craft beer, craft beer is a democratized process.
Joel Hermansan:Breweries support one another.
Joel Hermansan:Breweries help each other out.
Joel Hermansan:Breweries do not marginalize others.
Joel Hermansan:You know, we, we have a, a relationship with a brewery that I'm looking at their back door right now, apples and beer factory that, um, just, uh, it's a fabulous collaboration and that's more of the Norman Brewing after the, in craft brewing.
Joel Hermansan:In the craft beer age.
Joel Hermansan:The goal is not to produce, you know, hundreds of barrels of lager pills every year.
Joel Hermansan:That's, that's.
Joel Hermansan:You know, repetitive, the goal is to do things unique and to emphasize quality, et cetera.
Joel Hermansan:And so it has opened the door for women to, to kind of reassert themselves.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:Well, and, and it's happening.
Joel Hermansan:And we, and maybe not happening as fast as it should, but it's happening.
Joel Hermansan:And I want to highlight some women.
Joel Hermansan:After you.
Allison Fleshman:I was just gonna say, shout out to the Pink Boot Society.
Allison Fleshman:Yes.
Allison Fleshman:I have that on my list.
Allison Fleshman:There goes Yes.
Allison Fleshman:If we don't about Pink Boot, go for it.
Allison Fleshman:I'd like to hear it from the dudes.
Bobby Fleshman:No, just that it exists.
Bobby Fleshman:It exists.
Bobby Fleshman:Yes.
Bobby Fleshman:Um, and we, we should maybe comment on, we don't have to be so binary about this conversation.
Bobby Fleshman:Well, and the founder of the Pink Boo
Allison Fleshman:Society, Terry Fardo, it's, she's the kind of the definitive, like she's the woman who brought women back into the crap Beer movement.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:Pink Boo Society.
Joel Hermansan:I love it.
Joel Hermansan:Women brewers.
Joel Hermansan:And there are some ma and there are some major women brewers.
Joel Hermansan:I mean, you have, for example, Kim Jordan, who's a co-founder at New Belgium.
Allison Fleshman:Oh, yep.
Joel Hermansan:I mean, she's, well, and Deb Carey at
Bobby Fleshman:I that, I mean, this is the next business episode, so we're, we're kind of jumping way ahead, but,
Joel Hermansan:but Kim Jordan is a giant in brewing.
Joel Hermansan:Mm-hmm.
Joel Hermansan:So is Carol Stout of Stout Brewing.
Joel Hermansan:Yep.
Joel Hermansan:We have Wisconsin brewers who like, you know, obviously you mentioned Deb Carey, but
Allison Fleshman:yeah.
Joel Hermansan:Couple of the other ones that I wanna mention here really quickly.
Joel Hermansan:Megan Parisi is the head brewer at the Boston Brewing Company at Sam Adams.
Joel Hermansan:You know, and she's been in that role for a significant amount of time like that.
Joel Hermansan:That's a major, major job.
Joel Hermansan:That's not like you're the, you know, the brewer of a of a super small craft brewery and.
Joel Hermansan:Luxembourg, Wisconsin.
Joel Hermansan:I mean, that's a national brand.
Allison Fleshman:Well, I mean, and, and new gls.
Allison Fleshman:I mean, Deb Carey, I mean as, as much as we like to think, I don't even know what the other Carey's name is.
Allison Fleshman:Doug?
Allison Fleshman:No,
Joel Hermansan:Dan.
Joel Hermansan:Dan.
Joel Hermansan:Dan Carey.
Joel Hermansan:I hope he's not listening.
Joel Hermansan:Right.
Allison Fleshman:He should be because Deb Carey for the win.
Allison Fleshman:I mean she, one of
Joel Hermansan:my favorite quotes about Deb Carey, and it was in one of my articles, and I think it's attributed to Dan, he said that Deb Carey does everything.
Joel Hermansan:Except brew the beer.
Allison Fleshman:Right.
Allison Fleshman:And that I have learned, she does everything is like, for anyone that
Bobby Fleshman:doesn't know, Allison's going to complete my sentence here.
Allison Fleshman:5% of, and this is something that you learn from Michael Lewis, who's beer professor extraordinaire at uc Davis.
Allison Fleshman:And he was like, I'm gonna teach you how to brew beer.
Allison Fleshman:I'm not gonna teach you how to run a brewery.
Allison Fleshman:Yep.
Allison Fleshman:That at least for new is Deb Carey.
Allison Fleshman:She runs the brewery.
Allison Fleshman:She's a giant, oh my God.
Joel Hermansan:Mm-hmm.
Allison Fleshman:The woman's incredible.
Allison Fleshman:And then, I mean, and Dan brew the beer
Joel Hermansan:amongst others.
Joel Hermansan:I mean, there's other brewers as well too.
Joel Hermansan:Oh, there's other brewers too.
Joel Hermansan:So
Allison Fleshman:it's not even just him.
Joel Hermansan:So yeah, Deb Carey comes to mind.
Joel Hermansan:But one of the really interesting ones, and I'm not gonna, I feel I'm feeling we're
Allison Fleshman:having another episode of all these women.
Allison Fleshman:I'm not gonna
Joel Hermansan:succeed with her name, but Ann Francois, pure PE is, has been the lead brewer at the Orville Orval.
Joel Hermansan:Orval, excuse me.
Joel Hermansan:Trap is brewery.
Joel Hermansan:That, that.
Joel Hermansan:It is one of the great breweries in the world.
Joel Hermansan:I would
Bobby Fleshman:argue that between that and du Duval, those are the best two Belgian beers made.
Bobby Fleshman:Right, period.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:And
Joel Hermansan:she has been the head brewer there for well beyond a decade.
Joel Hermansan:So when I mentioned that craft brew, you know, the craft brewing has kind of allowed for women to reassert themselves.
Joel Hermansan:These are some examples.
Joel Hermansan:I mean, Wisconsin has several.
Joel Hermansan:Breweries owned run, and that use, you know, women in the brewing process, giant Jones and Madison is is one.
Joel Hermansan:Erica and Jessica Jones would be fun to get on this podcast.
Joel Hermansan:Oh yeah.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:And that's, if you're listening, please join us.
Bobby Fleshman:You know, there, there's a bigger conversation.
Bobby Fleshman:We're talking, I, I mentioned it a minute ago about binary, about we don't need to be so binary about the conversation 'cause we're in a time now where.
Bobby Fleshman:We have LGBTQ plus, but we also have a lot of minorities are trying to break into That's true.
Bobby Fleshman:Craft beer.
Allison Fleshman:Yep.
Bobby Fleshman:Right.
Bobby Fleshman:And beer in general.
Bobby Fleshman:And
Allison Fleshman:not even break into craft beer.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:There are many well established breweries Yes.
Allison Fleshman:That need to be celebrated.
Bobby Fleshman:Yes.
Bobby Fleshman:We have ownership.
Bobby Fleshman:Now we, we see in our own data as on the other side of the bar, people drinking are women.
Bobby Fleshman:We see it all constantly here.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:Women drink craft beer.
Bobby Fleshman:They
Joel Hermansan:do.
Bobby Fleshman:Women make craft beer.
Bobby Fleshman:According to
Joel Hermansan:a 2020 study, 31% of craft beer drinkers were women.
Joel Hermansan:That's up from a 2014 study, uh, that had that number at 24%.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Joel Hermansan:And craft brewing has led to democratization because women come in here all the time and.
Joel Hermansan:You know, women and not just women, but people have a different palate.
Joel Hermansan:And when you walk into a place like this, this place has a democratization quality about it because there's something for everybody downstairs.
Joel Hermansan:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:And it's a little bit hypocritical.
Bobby Fleshman:The brand of beer has been the, they say quote, I'm quoting the every man's drink.
Bobby Fleshman:Well, that's hypocritical in and of itself because if it's only for men.
Bobby Fleshman:It's not inclusive at all, is it?
Bobby Fleshman:Right.
Bobby Fleshman:So I think there's, there's a rebrand here and craft beer is trying to figure it out.
Bobby Fleshman:I'm not sure that that big macro lager cares to figure it out, but crap beer definitely is grappling with it.
Bobby Fleshman:Well,
Allison Fleshman:all I have to say is between your mother and Mo or your mother and me.
Allison Fleshman:We own a good 50% of this company, so at least Mick Fleshman has always been 50% women.
Bobby Fleshman:Oh yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:I'm, I'm definitely the Dan Carey here.
Bobby Fleshman:I, I, I am the.
Bobby Fleshman:Person that wants to make this stuff, but I appreciate that.
Bobby Fleshman:It's damn straight.
Bobby Fleshman:You make the beer small.
Bobby Fleshman:I make the brains of this operation.
Bobby Fleshman:It's a small piece of this equation.
Bobby Fleshman:Craft is, I, I said I was, I have a note that craft is still too.
Bobby Fleshman:Male and it's still too white male, and it's still too straight male.
Bobby Fleshman:It's, there's so many things about craft that needs to evolve, but it's aware of itself at least.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah, that's true.
Allison Fleshman:Well, and it it's open to understanding It's dynamic.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:It's, it's, uh, it's open.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:To understanding that there the strength of diversity
Joel Hermansan:and if you're interested in supporting women in brewing, I mentioned Giant Jones Brewing in Madison, Wisconsin.
Joel Hermansan:Dell's Brewing.
Joel Hermansan:Is women owned, women brewed, uh, I believe
Bobby Fleshman:they are lesbian owners.
Bobby Fleshman:I, I think that's, I, I'm not sure on that as far.
Bobby Fleshman:I mean, I either, I hope I'm not go team missing that, but I think that that's another point to bring up too.
Bobby Fleshman:Sure.
Bobby Fleshman:Love is love, uh,
Joel Hermansan:Gray's Brewing in Janesville, I believe is, is, uh, run by the proprietor and the brewery.
Joel Hermansan:Sarah Gray.
Joel Hermansan:Um, so if you're in any of these areas, check 'em out.
Allison Fleshman:Give a shout out also to Emily with Uncommon Pints.
Allison Fleshman:Oh, we love Emily
Joel Hermansan:Rothschild Pines.
Joel Hermansan:Don't ever
Bobby Fleshman:go toe to toe with her in a Stein hold.
Bobby Fleshman:Oh, she's gonna, she is the, the, there's no champion
Allison Fleshman:of our Stein hold at lagger fence.
Allison Fleshman:I don't care.
Allison Fleshman:First week in October.
Joel Hermansan:She held a stein longer than I usually sleep.
Joel Hermansan:Oh, it's, it was crazy.
Joel Hermansan:I was like, what?
Joel Hermansan:Well, she didn't
Allison Fleshman:even notice.
Allison Fleshman:She was like, oh wait, did I win?
Allison Fleshman:Can I put this down now?
Allison Fleshman:It's fine.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:Normally
Joel Hermansan:it ended an hour ago.
Allison Fleshman:We're actually, everybody went home, sleep in the street.
Allison Fleshman:Anyway, it's a fantastic craft beer.
Allison Fleshman:You can find us on tap.
Allison Fleshman:There is.
Allison Fleshman:She's so good.
Allison Fleshman:And she really does represent like, just like the, the.
Allison Fleshman:What craft beer is it be, and she be loves 5 47.
Allison Fleshman:So she
Joel Hermansan:and I are kindred spirits.
Joel Hermansan:And you can't
Bobby Fleshman:close this podcast without mentioning that the best pals and the best olf factory systems do not belong to men.
Bobby Fleshman:No, you don't.
Bobby Fleshman:You don't taste anything.
Bobby Fleshman:And it may, in fact, I taste
Joel Hermansan:hops
Bobby Fleshman:play that's into, it may play into the, I would say the artistic side of what, what is beer now this is why you come
Allison Fleshman:at me at 6:00 AM and you're like, try this was
Bobby Fleshman:like, yeah, she's, she's got 10 times the the nose.
Bobby Fleshman:I do.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:It's not, it's not something to gloss over and it informs the, the palate women taste better and, and, and the brewing techniques.
Joel Hermansan:Know, women are better looking too.
Joel Hermansan:I mean, that is true.
Joel Hermansan:They're usually smarter.
Allison Fleshman:We're smarter, we're better.
Allison Fleshman:We make better beer.
Allison Fleshman:All the things.
Allison Fleshman:Yeah.
Allison Fleshman:Keep it coming.
Allison Fleshman:Love it.
Joel Hermansan:You're usually tougher.
Joel Hermansan:I've heard
Allison Fleshman:I'm funnier too.
Allison Fleshman:Oh no.
Allison Fleshman:I'm funnier.
Allison Fleshman:We are funnier, but I'm funnier too.
Bobby Fleshman:I'm you, I'm a distant third.
Bobby Fleshman:So you guys can have that competition.
Bobby Fleshman:No one thinks you're funny.
Allison Fleshman:Bobby,
Bobby Fleshman:I'm probably a distant last
Joel Hermansan:someone.
Joel Hermansan:I did get a compliment the other day.
Joel Hermansan:Someone came into the tap room and said.
Joel Hermansan:That they heard that I was, that I was pretty funny.
Joel Hermansan:And then someone at the bar said, yeah, but he's not as funny as a, and I was like, oh, thank, thank you for being here.
Joel Hermansan:This is great.
Joel Hermansan:Thanks for joining us today.
Gary Arndt:I think that will wrap up another episode of Respecting the Beer, the producer, respecting the Beer is David Kalsow without David, this show wouldn't exist.
Gary Arndt:Make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player, so you'll never miss an episode.
Gary Arndt:And hear all of the hilarious stylings of Allison mc Fleshman,
Allison Fleshman:go team.
Gary Arndt:Feel free to join the Facebook group to get updates between the episodes and support the show over on Patreon where you're gonna hear things that didn't even make this show.
Gary Arndt:Believe it or not, links to both of these are in the show notes.
Gary Arndt:And until next time, please remember to respect the beer.
